450-400 vs 375 (and then flanged or belted) and new or used?

[WC86]

So I’m in the 18-24 month window for taking possession (to include the ordering/waiting) of a double. I used to be perfectly fine with my bolt guns but you guys talk too much about doubles and there are too many videos on YouTube and now I can’t live without a double. Specifically interested in Heym, again, largely this forum’s fault.

Ive not yet hunted Africa but it’s now in my 5 year plan to go on my first safari for Buffalo and plains game. I live in the southeastern US and mostly hunt black bear, pigs, and whitetail. I’m increasing trips for elk and considering other big critters here. I tend to only hunt with one gun (I run a custom 300wsm for everything right now) and know/shoot it very well. I also tend to practice a lot and shoot about 40-60 rounds with my hunting gun 6-8 times a year (with more from other rifles, shotguns, and handguns).

While the Africa bug may bite hard after the first trip, I’ve got young kids so I think for the next decade or two trips to Africa will be rare while I’ll hunt a lot in the US.

As such, I’ve been planning for a Heym 89 in 375 flanged. It seems perfect for someone who hunts North American big game with rare trips to Africa for buff and plains game. And if I chose to go after elephant one day I’m sure it would do the trick. On top of that, it wouldn’t be as fatiguing trying to practice up to get skilled with it like a 470 or 500.

I’ve been planning to go to Dallas to shoot a few of these things to make sure that’s what I’m interested in before the order.

All that said, I’m considering getting a used Heym to play around with a lot and get to know before investing in one where I pick all the options. I’d hate to go shoot once, order a gun, and figure out if I’d shot more id have ordered something different (or even that I don’t really like shooting doubles ). Looking around though, Heyms in 375 are rarer than hen’s teeth.

that brings a few questions into focus:

-there are a bunch of 450/400 heyms for sale. I’m surprised by this because I can’t well identify any objective benefits of the 450/400 over the 375. At less than 100yds, energy is nearly identical between the 450/400 and the 375fl and the belted case exceeds the 450/400. Bullet selection is far greater with 375 caliber and as such, with the right bullet, the 375 easily bests available bullets in the 450/400 for game shot beyond 100yds. Also, I’ve got a 375 H&H and a 416 rem mag and while I don’t have any ballistics gel, solids from both pass through a 16 inch pine tree without issue (aware this methodology doesn’t prove much, it just impressed the hell out of me and argues for the capability of cartridges in this class). I feel like penetration even on big stuff should be more than adequate with the 375 as is indicated by its history of use these last 100 years. And increasing the caliber to the degree of difference between .375 and .410 seems somewhat inconsequential relative to the vitals size, especially as a percentage of the surface area exposed on these animals when aiming. All that said, plenty on these forums as well as gunwriters argue to an obvious improvement in terminal ballistics on game. somebody please argue with me that the 450/400 is clearly superior so I won’t feel bad about picking up a used one of those as my first double over ordering a 375fl.

PLEASE NOTE that this isn a criticism of the 450/400. I think it’s a great caliber and if I were buying a gun specifically for Africa or I liked using more than one gun to hunt (I don’t know why I’m so weird about that) it would easily be my caliber of choice. To be honest, the cool factor associated with an old nitro express caliber is enough to choose it over a 375 anyway. Also, I don’t really like shooting beyond 150yds because I enjoy the stalk too much. So maybe there’s no reason to consider the 375 and the 450/400nis perfect?

-if getting a 375 double, would anyone argue for the extra horsepower (2400 vs 2550 FPS) and availability of the belted over the flanged cartridge? I feel like the KISS mentality demands going with a rimmed cartridge so as not to invite issue and the success of the 9.3x74, even on dangerous game, indicates the decrease in velocity should be fine. Thoughts?

-anyone that can speak to the custom fit/optioned double vs a used double for a first time double rifle buyer?

thanks all for your thoughts on this as well as all your previous discussions that I’ve poured over these last few months. The forum is great!

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Hi WC86, ironically I have just been through exactly the same choice process. I am sure @NJC will come in here some time too.
Firstly, I think you cant go wrong with Heym, but Merkel is great too.
As to caliber 375 FL sounds to be the perfect all rounder for Africa and the US, and Heym's Light frame model with scope mounts would make this an accurate and easy to shoot option. True finesse in a double that would be an absolute pleasure to carry.
I have now ordered a 450/400 sxs Heym double in the next size up Africa frame. I went this route because I will be using the double mostly for buffalo, and like you it will be close as possible. I also own a Ruger No1 375 H&H that is scoped for any longer distance shots on PG, but I am also a sub 150m person.
In summary, if you are looking at PG and American game with the occasional buff, I would go 375FL.

 

[WC86]

Hi WC86, ironically I have just been through exactly the same choice process. I am sure @NJC will come in here some time too.
Firstly, I think you cant go wrong with Heym, but Merkel is great too.
As to caliber 375 FL sounds to be the perfect all rounder for Africa and the US, and Heym's Light frame model with scope mounts would make this an accurate and easy to shoot option. True finesse in a double that would be an absolute pleasure to carry.
I have now ordered a 450/400 sxs Heym double in the next size up Africa frame. I went this route because I will be using the double mostly for buffalo, and like you it will be close as possible. I also own a Ruger No1 375 H&H that is scoped for any longer distance shots on PG, but I am also a sub 150m person.
In summary, if you are looking at PG and American game with the occasional buff, I would go 375FL.

Kevin, thanks very much for your reply. I’ve been reading your posts for some time now and was hoping you would weigh in. Good luck with the new 450/400! I look forward to the hunt report after it comes in.

 

[IvW]

For you the 375 makes a lot more sense and is what I would recommend.

 

[The Engineer]

Just a reminder, if you buy a used Heym it will probably be an 8BB as there are not many used 89Bs on the market. While the mechanical differences between the two are not huge the stock and balance are different. For instance the more closed grip on the 88B often causes the second finger to be bashed by the trigger guard but this does not happen on the more open gripped 89B. At least in my case it was a quite painful bash that did not make me love the rifle. However it was easily, and totally; fixed with a NECG trigger guard pad as often seen on shotguns.

With respect to caliber, the 375FL is a great cartridge especially with today's premium bullets. A 375 H&H double may be easier to find but I do not like doubles in rimless or belted cartridges as the bite of the ejector is significant less than on a flanged cartridges. I had a rimless caliber Chapuies that would not extract or eject the right barrel. It was an easy fix but I will stick to the classic flanged cartridges in double rifles.

As previously noted, the 375FL is usually on a smaller frame than the 450/400 so it will be lighter than a 450/400. Due to the difference in weight the difference in recoil may not be as much as a simple comparison of cartridges would indicate.

Hopefully you can get with Chris to handle and shoot some the different frame/cartridge combinations of the Heym doubles. Enjoy your quest.

 

[Adamsdjr]

Chris currently has a used 375 Flanged available. A beautiful rifle that has never been hunted. An 88B. Brass dies and ammo could also be available. It is mine and Chris is selling it for me.

 

[Nevada Mike]

If you like your 300 WSM, shoot that for NA hunting. Buy the 450/400 3" for use at the range and for DG in Africa. Take your 300 WSM for PG.

 

[Tanks]

... For instance the more closed grip on the 88B often causes the second finger to be bashed by the trigger guard but this does not happen on the more open gripped 89B. At least in my case it was a quite painful bash that did not make me love the rifle. However it was easily, and totally; fixed with a NECG trigger guard pad as often seen on shotguns.
...

I am at a tad over 130 rounds on my .500 NE since last year, probably will hit 170 before I head to Africa. I never had an issue of my finger getting bashed.

To the OP: I'd go with 450/400 for DG and another caliber for PG.

 

[MMAL]

Remember that the whole purpose of a double is to get up close and personal with the animal. Yes people shoot animals over 100 yards with a double but that is not what it was built for. I love hunting with a double because you know from the beginning of the hunt you want to get close. There obviously better rifles, (single barrel, scope) for 100+ yard shots.

With that said look at the two options from that perspective. The reason you do not see a lot of 375 in doubles, I believe, is that 375is the min for dangerous game. Who wants the min if you are gonna spend the money.

I would get the 450/400 or one step up the 500/416.

Btw in all three choices, factory ammo is limited both in the states and in Africa. Will you be reloading? If not consider it, The big bores are what got me into reloading. Good luck.

 

[Red Leg]

The desire to have a double rifle that will handle everything from a general PG hunt to DG is a tough requirement to fill.

For one thing, it means the rifle needs to be set up a bit differently than one dedicated to just dangerous game. A rifle with just irons or reflex sight will make for an interesting PG experience, but also likely a frustrating one as you stare at the - fill in the blank - of your dreams staring at you a 225 yards through a narrow window in the jes or on the next ridge. Secondly, it needs to be a rifle with the inherent accuracy to effectively shoot at such distances to take advantage of a telescopic sight. Such a rifle is actually getting harder to find among many of the current doubles because most leave the factory with only 50-meter regulation.

A rifle that was designed to offer that sort of versatility was the Blaser S2. Mine has three sets of barrels, and with two of them (.375 H&H and 30-06), I took buffalo and a wide assortment of PG on an extended hunt in Mozambique several years ago. It was designed to utilize the standard Blaser scope mounts found on the R8 which means the scope can be instantly dismounted for a follow-up in the thick stuff. My rifle shoots a sub- 2" LXR/LXR four shot group at 100 meters with either barrel. I therefore have PB range LXR shot capability to minute of reed buck out to 200 meters. To further optimize it, I actually sight in using just the right barrel which means I have single shot accuracy out to 300.

Below is an article about its use on buffalo in Mozambique. The photo is of a lovely free range Nyala taken with the 30-06 barrels on the same trip.

Mozambique Buffalo Hunt

Following my first hunt in Mozambique with my son, I published an article in African Hunting Gazette describing us taking a pair of bulls with Mashambanzou Safaris in Coutada 14 in the Zambezi Delta. Recently, the journal finished cataloguing the back issues on line. It was a fabulous...

www.africahunting.com

Of course the dowagers in the shooting press hated the S2 from the day it appeared. It does require a bit different manual of arms, but its primary sin was that it wasn't a "traditional" double rifle. I can remember being accused by one of the offended class on this site (though British, he apparently had never shot anything more lethal than a muntjac) who proclaimed I was using a double "improperly."

If you are serious about wanting a general purpose double for both PG and DG then I think it has to be a .375. You can look for a flanged (I have been for a while), but the H&H is far more practical, and after a hundred years the Germans really do have this rimless ejection thing sorted out.

Secondly, you need a rifle set up for dismountable scope use. The S2, of course comes from the factory that way. If you can find a Heym or Merkle with factory bases, then either would be a candidate. Insure what it doesn't have are simple slots cut in the rib by some shade tree gunsmith. A scope will gradually tear an unreinforced rib apart. If you can find a great deal on a rifle without the mounts, then another option is to send it to JJ Perodeaux https://jjperodeau.com/ for claw bases and rings. He can also reregulate the rifle to give you better down range accuracy with a preferred load. Regrettably, all of that likely will more than make up for the great deal you made. Should you order a new one, then have it equipped with bases.

You could also look around for a lightly used S2 (most are) and simply worry about finding the load that works best. You may have to worry about Terry Wieland curling his lip in distaste if you meet him in a camp somewhere (I keep hoping I do), but you can also take a lot of satisfaction in taking a superb road less travelled.

Finally, the most practical thing for you to do is to buy a dedicated buffalo rifle in 450 and simply also bring that .300 for PG. But should you decide to be impractical, get the .375, scope it and regulate it "improperly", and go hunt everything in Africa.

 

[WC86]

The desire to have a double rifle that will handle everything from a general PG hunt to DG is a tough requirement to fill.

For one thing, it means the rifle needs to be set up a bit differently than one dedicated to just dangerous game. A rifle with just irons or reflex sight will make for an interesting PG experience, but also likely a frustrating one as you stare at the - fill in the blank - of your dreams staring at you a 225 yards through a narrow window in the jes or on the next ridge. Secondly, it needs to be a rifle with the inherent accuracy to effectively shoot at such distances to take advantage of a telescopic sight. Such a rifle is actually getting harder to find among many of the current doubles because most leave the factory with only 50-meter regulation.

A rifle that was designed to offer that sort of versatility was the Blaser S2. Mine has three sets of barrels, and with two of them (.375 H&H and 30-06), I took buffalo and a wide assortment of PG on an extended hunt in Mozambique several years ago. It was designed to utilize the standard Blaser scope mounts found on the R8 which means the scope can be instantly dismounted for a follow-up in the thick stuff. My rifle shoots a sub- 2" LXR/LXR four shot group at 100 meters with either barrel. I therefore have PB range LXR shot capability to minute of reed buck out to 200 meters. To further optimize it, I actually sight in using just the right barrel which means I have single shot accuracy out to 300.

Below is an article about its use on buffalo in Mozambique. The photo is of a lovely free range Nyala taken with the 30-06 barrels on the same trip.

Mozambique Buffalo Hunt

Following my first hunt in Mozambique with my son, I published an article in African Hunting Gazette describing us taking a pair of bulls with Mashambanzou Safaris in Coutada 14 in the Zambezi Delta. Recently, the journal finished cataloguing the back issues on line. It was a fabulous...

www.africahunting.com

Of course the dowagers in the shooting press hated the S2 from the day it appeared. It does require a bit different manual of arms, but its primary sin was that it wasn't a "traditional" double rifle. I can remember being accused by one of the offended class on this site (though British, he apparently had never shot anything more lethal than a muntjac) who proclaimed I was using a double "improperly."

If you are serious about wanting a general purpose double for both PG and DG then I think it has to be a .375. You can look for a flanged (I have been for a while), but the H&H is far more practical, and after a hundred years the Germans really do have this rimless ejection thing sorted out.

Secondly, you need a rifle set up for dismountable scope use. The S2, of course comes from the factory that way. If you can find a Heym or Merkle with factory bases, then either would be a candidate. Insure what it doesn't have are simple slots cut in the rib by some shade tree gunsmith. A scope will gradually tear an unreinforced rib apart. If you can find a great deal on a rifle without the mounts, then another option is to send it to JJ Perodeaux https://jjperodeau.com/ for claw bases and rings. He can also reregulate the rifle to give you better down range accuracy with a preferred load. Regrettably, all of that likely will more than make up for the great deal you made. Should you order a new one, then have it equipped with bases.

You could also look around for a lightly used S2 (most are) and simply worry about finding the load that works best. You may have to worry about Terry Wieland curling his lip in distaste if you meet him in a camp somewhere (I keep hoping I do), but you can also take a lot of satisfaction in taking a superb road less travelled.

Finally, the most practical thing for you to do is to buy a dedicated buffalo rifle in 450 and simply also bring that .300 for PG. But should you decide to be impractical, get the .375, scope it and regulate it "improperly", and go hunt everything in Africa.

Redleg, I’ve read many of your posts as well as Ive worked through this.
One of my initial musings on the topic was to go with the s2 with 2 (or three) barrel sets and a good 1-8 scope in their qd mount. However, finding new old stock or used barrels for the s2, even on blaser buds, seems a challenging task. I’d just have to pick them up over years as they appear I suppose.

that said, what you mention regarding scope use is what I have considered for an “all purpose” double. 375fl with Qd trijicon (that and irons for my ideal short yardage scenarios) and a set of factory claw mounts with a 1-8 (for those “last day of the hunt and you aren’t getting any closer” scenarios) sighted in to the first barrel with a good understanding of how the second barrel’s POI will “regulate” to the scope reticle at various distances.

and probably like most folks, the idea of a big bore 450 or 470 to join the dance card with my trusty 300 is strong. I just like to shoot a fair number of rounds at most range trips (100-150 rifle, mostly from much smaller calibers, 500 pistol) and thinking of even a box of 470 loads on one day sounds unpleasant. For as much as I’ll invest in the gun I want to truly enjoy shooting it. I have a 416 rem mag and although I can shoot it well, I don’t describe 20 full house rounds in a day as enjoyable. I imagine the 450/470 would be the same. However, When i shoot my 375 h&h bolt gun I always find myself wishing I’d brought more ammo.

With regard to ammo, to answer other replies, I do reload for all my calibers. Had a 325wsm a while back and paid for the reloading equipment with the savings on ammo. That got me started and I haven’t looked back.

Redleg and others, your insights are very helpful. Thanks again for all the wisdom on this site. Still not sure what direction I’ll go and interested to see what others have to say

 

[The Engineer]

I am sure Tanks is correct that he has no problem with finger bashing with his 500NE Heym 88B as the propensity for the impact is heavily associated with the size, shape, strength, etc of the hand. In my case I have short fingers and arthritis in my wrist. Some of my shooting buddies have also had the issue. The reason I pointed it out was not to dissuade you on the 88B but as a caution that if you fired an 88B first and did get bashed the experience might make you reluctant to order an 89B, As long as you recognize you might have a problem with an 88B the pad totally solves the impact.

I have attached photos of my 88B (Lighter colored stock.) and 89Bs in 450NE. You can see the considerably more open grip on the 89B and the finger pad on the 88B {Click copy gif on the thumbnails for a full size view. I am going to sell the 88B as it is a duplicate but I still hunt pigs with my 470NE 88B for practice. IE: It is a personal choice between the 88B and the 89B and there are no deficiencies in either.

 

[WC86]

I am sure Tanks is correct that he has no problem with finger bashing with his 500NE Heym 88B as the propensity for the impact is heavily associated with the size, shape, strength, etc of the hand. In my case I have short fingers and arthritis in my wrist. Some of my shooting buddies have also had the issue. The reason I pointed it out was not to dissuade you on the 88B but as a caution that if you fired an 88B first and did get bashed the experience might make you reluctant to order an 89B, As long as you recognize you might have a problem with an 88B the pad totally solves the impact.

I have attached photos of my 88B (Lighter colored stock.) and 89Bs in 450NE. You can see the considerably more open grip on the 89B and the finger pad on the 88B {Click copy gif on the thumbnails for a full size view. I am going to sell the 88B as it is a duplicate but I still hunt pigs with my 470NE 88B for practice. IE: It is a personal choice between the 88B and the 89B and there are no deficiencies in either.

View attachment 410638

View attachment 410639

Those are gorgeous. Like you with hogs, I may switch to using mine exclusively. Especially if I like shooting it more than bolts as I liked sxs shotguns more than semiauto’s

 

[Nhoro]

WC86, I think that you really need to be honest with what you want the rifle for. If it is the pleasure of owning a quality double and shooting it at the range, that is good enough. You dont need to go to Africa or have plans for an elephant/buffalo.

Just avoid being trapped in no mans land. A double is not really designed for scope/100+m shots. If you love stalking and close range shots, a double may suit for plainsgame. But I think that is why you see 450/400 and 375 doubles for sale. They are in betweeners- not a dangerous game charge stopper and- in a double- not accurate enough for 100+ m shots. I think a 375 bolt gun is successful because it is big enough for elephant and accurate enough for scope/longer shots. I dont think a double can say that.

I also think the the blaser may offer the accuracy but then you lose some of the 'fashion' appeal of the double. A double says to me,old world hunting safari, and I think a blaser doesnt have that appeal.

Maybe buy a second hand double and enjoy for a few months/years. If 450/400s are common they should be relatively cheaper. Then in a few years or months, sell it and order your own gun.

 

[kdenn]

@WC86 this forum is a great source of information but it’s filled with enablers. I have more rifles than I need but now can’t stop looking at listings of Blasers and big bore doubles! Have a .375 Ruger but now realize I really need an old school .375H&H bolt action for any African safari! All thanks to the information gleaned on this forum. Good luck with your rifle selection!

 

[Red Leg]

WC86, I think that you really need to be honest with what you want the rifle for. If it is the pleasure of owning a quality double and shooting it at the range, that is good enough. You dont need to go to Africa or have plans for an elephant/buffalo.

Just avoid being trapped in no mans land. A double is not really designed for scope/100+m shots. If you love stalking and close range shots, a double may suit for plainsgame. But I think that is why you see 450/400 and 375 doubles for sale. They are in betweeners- not a dangerous game charge stopper and- in a double- not accurate enough for 100+ m shots. I think a 375 bolt gun is successful because it is big enough for elephant and accurate enough for scope/longer shots. I dont think a double can say that.

I also think the the blaser may offer the accuracy but then you lose some of the 'fashion' appeal of the double. A double says to me,old world hunting safari, and I think a blaser doesnt have that appeal.

Maybe buy a second hand double and enjoy for a few months/years. If 450/400s are common they should be relatively cheaper. Then in a few years or months, sell it and order your own gun.

@WC86 See what I mean?

 

[Red Leg]

WC86, I think that you really need to be honest with what you want the rifle for. If it is the pleasure of owning a quality double and shooting it at the range, that is good enough. You dont need to go to Africa or have plans for an elephant/buffalo.

Just avoid being trapped in no mans land. A double is not really designed for scope/100+m shots. If you love stalking and close range shots, a double may suit for plainsgame. But I think that is why you see 450/400 and 375 doubles for sale. They are in betweeners- not a dangerous game charge stopper and- in a double- not accurate enough for 100+ m shots. I think a 375 bolt gun is successful because it is big enough for elephant and accurate enough for scope/longer shots. I dont think a double can say that.

I also think the the blaser may offer the accuracy but then you lose some of the 'fashion' appeal of the double. A double says to me,old world hunting safari, and I think a blaser doesnt have that appeal.

Maybe buy a second hand double and enjoy for a few months/years. If 450/400s are common they should be relatively cheaper. Then in a few years or months, sell it and order your own gun.

Addendum:

With all due respect Nhoro, your comments are exactly the sort of thing most people repeat about the "proper" use of a double - or as you put it, a rifle - "not really designed for a scope." I say repeat, because the people espousing such conclusions rarely have much experience with a truly accurate double upon which to base them with such absolute certainty.

So first of all, I readily concede most English style doubles were indeed conceived of for close work on dangerous game (or wild boar on the Continent).

However, very few clients on this forum will ever have a need for a true stopping rifle. Sure, there is plenty of nostalgia in owning one (heck, I do), but such a rifle is actually a liability for a client on a typical modern buffalo hunt. And of course, such a rifle is of even less utility if the client attempts to use it on PG in the limited time available on a typical modern "safari."

Fortunately, several modern quality doubles can be and are regularly built with the intention of using them with a scope. The Blaser and Kreighoff are easily adapted, and a Heym or Verney Carron can be ordered with factory bases and specified range regulation. Obviously, that can be done with any of the high end makers as well. For instance, an acquaintance has a magnificent Holland & Holland .375 flanged originally built with mounts for its detachable scope. It is extraordinarily accurate, but of course, extraordinarily valuable.

With such a rifle, a client can make it a truly effective all purpose hunting firearm for African game. I know this because I have done it. He can remove the scope and hunt his buffalo with open sights in the tight thorn, or he can mount it and surgically drop his bull among a dozen of his fellows in bad light or the open Zambezi Delta.

Rather than make believe that he is Sutherland, a client that truly appreciates the capabilities of a modern double can enjoy the uniqueness of such a rifle while exploiting accuracy so necessary on a modern, abbreviated African hunt.

 

[Nhoro]

Red Leg you have pretty much stated exactly what I was saying. Old world nostalgia doubles are not suited to plainsgame. Modern doubles don't have the nostalgia but they have accuracy.

So essentially you can't have your cake and eat it. I just see 'modern ' doubles as similar to a replica AC cobra. More reliable but not as cool. And a cheaper bolt gun will still be more accurate !

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Yes, I think in this case you can have your cake and eat it. A Heym 89b is exactly that, a modern 'old British' double. There are people on this forum who have one with scope bases and they are reporting wonderful performance and groups. A double is a hunting rifle, it is about kill zone, not millimetric accuracy.

 

[IvW]

Heym regulate parallel so the regulation load never crosses....I dont think you get better than that....does not leave Heym if it does not make their minimum accuracy specs.... part of the reason they cost more than the run of the mill double and you can shoot any bullet through them where other manufacurers will void the warranty if you use mono metal bullets....

Unless you are a collector a Heym double makes a lot of sense....