458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott

[CoElkHunter]

Mate, I reckon you could shoot a thousand head of game and if you didn't know what cartridge was what, you wouldn't ever tell the difference...

Cheers,

Russ

Yep!

 

[CoElkHunter]

I ordered a NIB CZ American 458 Lott over a decade ago. When it arrived the 458 win was crossed out and lott was added above the win. I guess the factory reamed them out. Unfortunately, my stock did split. The split was on the bottom running from the recoil lug through the magazine well. I purchased a Bell & Carlson with aluminum bedding and haven't had any problems.

Yes, I was planning on eventually getting a B & C stock for it, so I didn’t care this rifle doesn’t have stock crossbolts? The price was right. This (both my CZs) has an American style stock which seems mated to the action well with room between the rear tang bolt and stock. The front sling swivel stud is missing so I’ve got to do something about that as I’m a sling shooter. I don’t plan on shooting it from the bench. I would like to put a red dot type sight on it for shots up to 100 meters? Yesterday I had a 5” five shot group at 50 yards with the express sights.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I ordered a NIB CZ American 458 Lott over a decade ago. When it arrived the 458 win was crossed out and lott was added above the win. I guess the factory reamed them out. Unfortunately, my stock did split. The split was on the bottom running from the recoil lug through the magazine well. I purchased a Bell & Carlson with aluminum bedding and haven't had any problems.

 

[t165]

Mine looks exactly the same. For some reason,

I thought the WIN. MAG. was crossed out. They say memory is the second thing to go!

 

[CoElkHunter]

Mine looks exactly the same. For some reason,View attachment 338140 I thought the WIN. MAG. was crossed out. They say memory is the second thing to go!

Maybe the one I have originally came from the factory already rechambered too, unless all the CZ Lotts are stamped this way?

 

[Forrest Halley]

It is not uncommon to hear complaints about feeding issues with Lotts, but a good gunsmith should be able to sort your problem out. If not, you have a bit of a problem as a rifle that doesn't feed 100% reliably is not acceptable for DG use. In fact I know of people who sold their Lotts and went back to .458WM for precisely that reason. That said, you should not have that problem with a CZ as the action is long and they easily accommodate the Lott cartridge. Could be that your rails need a bit of work, but I am not a gunsmith. Recoil on the CZ is pretty stiff and the rifle is not pleasant to shoot off a bench. This is due to a combination of weight and stock design. That said, you shouldn't notice the recoil in the field , especially when shooting offhand

I have a Ruger No. 1. I have no feeding issues. It's just a big gun that's not a repeater.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Forrest,
There’s a moot point to all of this. A 450gr Barnes in WM at 2240fps vs. a 500gr Nosler in Lott at 2300fps? So, 50gr more at 760fps more? Of course, factory loads not handloads. Seems insignificant?
CoElkHunter

The moot point is that I got the gun in Lott because I can shoot the two shell lengths. The varying levels of power are just fine by me. I don't know the difference between fifty grains and 800 fps except that I don't have to settle as I can use both rounds.

 

[Martin77]

Great information!

 

[ldmay375]

That is the same stamping as on my CZ also.
I bought it used and do not know the history of its original purchase.

Mine looks exactly the same. For some reason,View attachment 338140 I thought the WIN. MAG. was crossed out. They say memory is the second thing to go!

 

[Daga Boy]

Mate, I reckon you could shoot a thousand head of game and if you didn't know what cartridge was what, you wouldn't ever tell the difference...

Cheers,

Russ

 

[Daga Boy]

Agreed.
I have heard many good reports of 400g bullets in the .458WM, but the current "standard" is a 450gr bullet.
Depending on bullet /powder/rifle combination you can get around 2300fps with a 450gr banded monometal bullet. These loads perform well on buffalo, and they are also used for elephant, with success.
A 500gr bullet launched at the same velocity will penetrate better due to increased momentum, but whether that will make any difference in the field would depend on circumstances. Personally, I think the only time it would potentially make a difference is on elephant or on departing big game (as PH's are sometime forced to shoot).
Professionals hunters and others involved in elephant hunting/ culling operations tend to prefer more powerful cartridges which operate at lower pressures (eg.450Rigby). Those are a step up from the lott and so better for raking shots, etc. The lower operating pressure also makes them safer. However this is only a relevant consideration in hot, environments.
The nice thing about the 458WM is that it fits int a standard length action.
If you have one built on a magnum length action (like the CZ) then might just as well have it reamed to Lott/Watts as you only stand to gain - provided of course it is done properly.

 

[Badboymelvin]

Hi Daga Boy.

I've owned 2 magnum length CZ's in .458WM and I kept them both as is...

This was for 2 reasons:

1. I absolutely LOATH the Lott round
&
2. I simply loaded the .458WM to the maximum length the magazine allowed. I was getting an easy 2220fps with the 500gn Woodleigh PP loaded like this.
I never tried for more velocity as I was pretty content with that load.

I must say one thing. When I say I loath the Lott, I'm in no way saying it's a bad round. Or in-effective. Or a poor choice.
I'm just saying some cartridges take your fancy and you get a fondness for - and some cartridges you don't. The .458WM is one round that's taken my fancy and the Lott is one round that has not.
I know there are people that feel the same way about the Lott and dislike the .458WM.
And that's fine too.
It's a great thing that we have choices!

The .458WM is a round that I personally really like (in fact it's my favourite) and a round that I have had a lot of enjoyment and success loading for.
And when I say success I don't mean to say that with any arrogance. I simply only asked of it what it was originally meant to do, nothing more - and I achieved that.
All I ever wanted was 215ofps with a 480-500gn projectile and I achieved that comfortably with local ADI powders. With little compression and no excess pressure signs. And worked up in the summertime of Australia.

The .458WM is the perfect DG rifle... FOR ME!
With my loads I'm getting performance from it that's been proven effective on all DG and its at the absolute limit of my recoil tolerance.
I love the old .458WM just like a lot of people love the Lott. Or the .404. Or the .416 Rigby.

We've all got our favourite... and we're all right!

Cheers,

Russ

 

[Daga Boy]

Hi Daga Boy.

I've owned 2 magnum length CZ's in .458WM and I kept them both as is...

This was for 2 reasons:

1. I absolutely LOATH the Lott round
&
2. I simply loaded the .458WM to the maximum length the magazine allowed. I was getting an easy 2220fps with the 500gn Woodleigh PP loaded like this.
I never tried for more velocity as I was pretty content with that load.

I must say one thing. When I say I loath the Lott, I'm in no way saying it's a bad round. Or in-effective. Or a poor choice.
I'm just saying some cartridges take your fancy and you get a fondness for - and some cartridges you don't. The .458WM is one round that's taken my fancy and the Lott is one round that has not.
I know there are people that feel the same way about the Lott and dislike the .458WM.
And that's fine too.
It's a great thing that we have choices!

The .458WM is a round that I personally really like (in fact it's my favourite) and a round that I have had a lot of enjoyment and success loading for.
And when I say success I don't mean to say that with any arrogance. I simply only asked of it what it was originally meant to do, nothing more - and I achieved that.
All I ever wanted was 215ofps with a 480-500gn projectile and I achieved that comfortably with local ADI powders. With little compression and no excess pressure signs. And worked up in the summertime of Australia.

The .458WM is the perfect DG rifle... FOR ME!
With my loads I'm getting performance from it that's been proven effective on all DG and its at the absolute limit of my recoil tolerance.
I love the old .458WM just like a lot of people love the Lott. Or the .404. Or the .416 Rigby.

We've all got our favourite... and we're all right!

Cheers,

Russ

Your points are valid. In fact I bought my CZ .458 intending to convert it to Lott, but I haven't done so as i easily get 2150fps with 500g bullets (loaded slightly long) and 2250 -2300fps with 450g banded monometals - which is enough for my application (its essentially a guide/close range gun). Also, my rifle is accurate and feeds perfectly, whereas I know people who have experienced problems with accuracy and feeding post re-chambering. That is no doubt the result of poor smithing, but I would rather not take the chance given that I don't need the extra velocity for my application.

 

[Timbo]

Hi Daga Boy.

I've owned 2 magnum length CZ's in .458WM and I kept them both as is...

This was for 2 reasons:

1. I absolutely LOATH the Lott round
&
2. I simply loaded the .458WM to the maximum length the magazine allowed. I was getting an easy 2220fps with the 500gn Woodleigh PP loaded like this.
I never tried for more velocity as I was pretty content with that load.

I must say one thing. When I say I loath the Lott, I'm in no way saying it's a bad round. Or in-effective. Or a poor choice.
I'm just saying some cartridges take your fancy and you get a fondness for - and some cartridges you don't. The .458WM is one round that's taken my fancy and the Lott is one round that has not.
I know there are people that feel the same way about the Lott and dislike the .458WM.
And that's fine too.
It's a great thing that we have choices!

The .458WM is a round that I personally really like (in fact it's my favourite) and a round that I have had a lot of enjoyment and success loading for.
And when I say success I don't mean to say that with any arrogance. I simply only asked of it what it was originally meant to do, nothing more - and I achieved that.
All I ever wanted was 215ofps with a 480-500gn projectile and I achieved that comfortably with local ADI powders. With little compression and no excess pressure signs. And worked up in the summertime of Australia.

The .458WM is the perfect DG rifle... FOR ME!
With my loads I'm getting performance from it that's been proven effective on all DG and its at the absolute limit of my recoil tolerance.
I love the old .458WM just like a lot of people love the Lott. Or the .404. Or the .416 Rigby.

We've all got our favourite... and we're all right!

Cheers,

Russ

Beautifully said - and I totally agree!!

 

[WAB]

In addition to the magnum action, your WM must have a long throat to allow loading out that far? If not I would think you would run into problems.

 

[CoElkHunter]

In addition to the magnum action, your WM must have a long throat to allow loading out that far? If not I would think you would run into problems.

The CZs seem to have a very generous throat length. They accommodate extending the bullets in the .458WM cases well.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Your points are valid. In fact I bought my CZ .458 intending to convert it to Lott, but I haven't done so as i easily get 2150fps with 500g bullets (loaded slightly long) and 2250 -2300fps with 450g banded monometals - which is enough for my application (its essentially a guide/close range gun). Also, my rifle is accurate and feeds perfectly, whereas I know people who have experienced problems with accuracy and feeding post re-chambering. That is no doubt the result of poor smithing, but I would rather not take the chance given that I don't need the extra velocity for my application.

Yes, I really don't know why I bought my latest CZ in .458 Lott, other than I bought it for a very good price and unlike many, I like reloading the straight walled .458 cases up or down in powder charges/bullet weights and it doesn't matter. I do have a large quantity of 500gr. Barnes TSX which will probably be better loading them in the Lott, but I still really like my WM. My misguided and "why?" experimentation with the Lott case will be to neck it down to .416 with my .416 Taylor dies. We'll see what comes of it?

 

[Daga Boy]

Hi Guys.

Thanks I eventually opted for a .458 Lott CZ 550 Safari Magnum. I love that gun now. Only thing I changed was, I added a mercury tube, polished the action & replaced the front site with a luminous orange pin.
Im also shooting reloaded Peregrine 500gr solid's at 2298 fps. Im more than happy with that.

I have more than enough penetration on an Elephant. That 500gr hits like a freight train at almost 2300fps.
Buffalo from any angle also seems to have no problem with penetration. I am a really happy camper.
The CZ reliability has proven itself on 2 occasions. Wonderfull calibre.

Cant really beat a CZ for reliability.

 

[Daga Boy]

The reason for the back and forth is that many people on this forum are looking at figures on paper rather than carrying these rifles in the bush.
A consideration which is much more important than Velocity is how well the rifle handles and how ell you can shoot it under pressure. In this regard bear in mind that you may have only a second or two to get on target and fire a shot in a really tight situation. While the Lott is more versatile, it requires a full length magnum action, whereas the ,458WM fits into a standard 30-06 length action. Also, a lot of people hit their recoil limit with full power .458WM loads - and more bang counts for nothing if you cant hit the target reliably. You ideally want the rifle to point like a properly fitted shotgun.
So, for me it comes down to this: If you are comfortable with a long actioned rifle (like the CZ550) , then go for the Lott. If, on the other hand, you feel more comfortable with a more compact platform, then go for a .458 WM built on a standard length action. Either way, you want to keep the platform as handy as possible. For this reason many Lott users have their barrels trimmed to 22 or 23", thereby sacrificing maybe 100fps.
If you are using the rifle as a backup/guide gun then a 500grn bullet at 2150 is all you need, and you can get this out of a 24 or 25" barreled .458WM or out of a 22" barreled Lott. You will however get a lot of muzzle flash from such a short barreled Lott, and muzzle flip will generally be quite severe.
So, horses for courses. Best take a rifle to the range, fire 20 shots and see how it goes.

 

[Timbo]

The reason for the back and forth is that many people on this forum are looking at figures on paper rather than carrying these rifles in the bush.
A consideration which is much more important than Velocity is how well the rifle handles and how ell you can shoot it under pressure. In this regard bear in mind that you may have only a second or two to get on target and fire a shot in a really tight situation. While the Lott is more versatile, it requires a full length magnum action, whereas the ,458WM fits into a standard 30-06 length action. Also, a lot of people hit their recoil limit with full power .458WM loads - and more bang counts for nothing if you cant hit the target reliably. You ideally want the rifle to point like a properly fitted shotgun.
So, for me it comes down to this: If you are comfortable with a long actioned rifle (like the CZ550) , then go for the Lott. If, on the other hand, you feel more comfortable with a more compact platform, then go for a .458 WM built on a standard length action. Either way, you want to keep the platform as handy as possible. For this reason many Lott users have their barrels trimmed to 22 or 23", thereby sacrificing maybe 100fps.
If you are using the rifle as a backup/guide gun then a 500grn bullet at 2150 is all you need, and you can get this out of a 24 or 25" barreled .458WM or out of a 22" barreled Lott. You will however get a lot of muzzle flash from such a short barreled Lott, and muzzle flip will generally be quite severe.
So, horses for courses. Best take a rifle to the range, fire 20 shots and see how it goes.

Beautifully, and fairly, said!!