458 Winchester Magnum, more powerful than 458 Lott?

[oscar1975]

According to this link 458 Winchester Magnum is more powerful than 458 Lott, and I wonder how can 458 WM develop faster and thus more energy with a sheath shorter than the 458 Lott? I do not understand.

Thank you,

Oscar.

http://www.impalabullets.at/data/Grosswildkat-En.pdf

 

[Mike70560]

I like the 458 Win. It is a good cartridge and is proven. It can effectively kill anything in Africa. The Lott is the same just .300 longer. A little more of a good thing. No way can the ultimate capacity of the Win Mag exceed the Lott.

I once read something about CIP and SAAMI specs and why outside of the states the Lott is loaded below levels of the Win Mag. If I can find the story I will post it.

Interesting site. I would like to test their bullets. The bands on the solids are too wide (like Barnes) for me to shoot in a double. I do not like the round nose and would bet the GS custom or the NF would beat it easily. I have only seen a couple of test with the long pointed bullets, they did not fair well, maybe Impala figured it out?

 

[oscar1975]

Thank you Mike

Hello, I would be grateful if you can give me this post, because I believe that a cartridge with a larger sheath may contain more gunpowder and thus ensure that the bullet is provided with more speed and power. I also read that the rounded tips and soft often get damaged when passing admitted into the charger and then you can have feeding problems.

Regards,

Oscar.

 

[daggaboyblog]

Hey Oscar.
The Winchester will get to 2,150fps with handloading, some might get a bit more out of it.
In my Ackley I can get to 2,400 without any effort, the Lott generally duplicates the Ackley - the difference is might be argued by two fellows very passionate about their preferred calibre!
There is no way the standard 458 Winchester is going move faster than any of the 458's with the longer case, just not possible.
Having said that, I know PH's who swear y it as a stopper on dangerous game.

 

[AFRIVENTURE]

Oscar
What I know about Impala bullets is the following ; One normaly would shoot a lighter bullet than normal as the quality is very good and you don't need a heavy bullet to get very good performance.
The article does not state what weight bullets was used in the Win mag and the Lott, but I would suggest that the ones in the win mag was lighter.

It all comes down to weight of bullet used and tipe.
I own both

I cannot get more than 2150 fps with a "500gr Barnes tripple shock" in my Lott if I want to stay out of pressure problems!
These bullets in the 500gr is just too long to get more powder into the case.
Now - other bullets can go a lot more in the Lott.

Incidently I mostly use a 458 Win Mag in Zambia and would not trade it on dangerous game, and I only use premium factory ammo!!

It is NOT all about speed, that is when you get deformed solids, bullets that tumble, softs that does not perform (blow up) - remember this is a calibre that is mostly used at short range - speed will mess things up!!

No bullet is made for High velocities at short range!! they will not perform as they should.

And remember the 458 win got its bad reputation many many years ago because the choice of bullets at the time was limited and of poor quality - it is a total different ball game today where the choice of ammo is of VERY good quality.

 

[oscar1975]

Oscar
What I know about Impala bullets is the following ; One normaly would shoot a lighter bullet than normal as the quality is very good and you don't need a heavy bullet to get very good performance.
The article does not state what weight bullets was used in the Win mag and the Lott, but I would suggest that the ones in the win mag was lighter.

It all comes down to weight of bullet used and tipe.
I own both

I cannot get more than 2150 fps with a "500gr Barnes tripple shock" in my Lott if I want to stay out of pressure problems!
These bullets in the 500gr is just too long to get more powder into the case.
Now - other bullets can go a lot more in the Lott.

Incidently I mostly use a 458 Win Mag in Zambia and would not trade it on dangerous game, and I only use premium factory ammo!!

It is NOT all about speed, that is when you get deformed solids, bullets that tumble, softs that does not perform (blow up) - remember this is a calibre that is mostly used at short range - speed will mess things up!!

No bullet is made for High velocities at short range!! they will not perform as they should.

And remember the 458 win got its bad reputation many many years ago because the choice of bullets at the time was limited and of poor quality - it is a total different ball game today where the choice of ammo is of VERY good quality.

Hello, in the table giving the data of Lott and Winchester Magnum is the top weight expressed in grams projectiles instead of grains. I guess that Lott is 458 with the projectile that is always get faster speeds than the Winchester, because of its greater length sheath. It is my opinion.

Oscar.

 

[oscar1975]

Hey Oscar.
The Winchester will get to 2,150fps with handloading, some might get a bit more out of it.
In my Ackley I can get to 2,400 without any effort, the Lott generally duplicates the Ackley - the difference is might be argued by two fellows very passionate about their preferred calibre!
There is no way the standard 458 Winchester is going move faster than any of the 458's with the longer case, just not possible.
Having said that, I know PH's who swear y it as a stopper on dangerous game.

True, according to page Midwayusa bullets of 465 grains with 458 Lott reaches 2380 feet per second and 458 Ackley 2400 is that only 20 feet per second apart, with that same weight of 458 Winchester Magnum bullets reaches 2220 feet per second. So I do not understand how on the link provided I have stated that 458 Win Mag with one of the bullet (the lightest) outranked Lott.

Regards,

Oscar.

PS: The ammunition is accessed Midwayusa A-Square.

 

[DUGABOY1]

You can take that web-site for what it is worth from someone trying to sell you something!

In the first place the 458 Win mag will not surpass the 458 lott, and the Feet pounds of energy is not a good indicator of killing power. As the bullets get lighter the FPE goes up but the killing power goes up with heavier bullets, and the shape of the bullet. The speer pointed bullets are not the best shape for tissue damage in large animals. Also the pressure rings on that Impala bullet are in my opinion too wide to be used in a double rifle. That bullet needs to be made with thinner pressure rings, and with a flat point if it is to be used on heavy dangerous game.

The flat point emparts more tissue damage, and tends to track a straighter line while penetrating heavy tissue. There is a case for "DOWN LOADING" the LOTT however! I load mine to the same ballistics of the 450NE , with a 480 gr bullet, at 2150 fps. Lower pressure, less recoil, and will take anything you are likely to hunt on this planet!

IMO, the site is simply smoke and mirrors, and with the same bullet weight the 458 Win Mag will never top the 458 LOTT!

 

[daggaboyblog]

.458 Lott vs Win Mag

Oscar, I’m with DUGABOY1 on this one. Everything that DUGABOY1 said was 100% correct with regards to the terminal performance of these loads on game.

Seems to me that the boys and girls at Impala Ammunition have either made a typing error or they are loading down the Lott in their line of dangerous game ammo. I converted the numbers to the imperial stats that we are accustomed to seeing just to clarify.

The loads have been calculated using 300gr and 420gr bullets. Not ideal bullet weights for dangerous game in .458 calibre. 300gr is awesome in a .375 and 40gr is great in a .416 – but 500gr is more on the money in the .458 calibre.

That aside, this data shows that with a 300gr bullet, the Lott is 2% slower. It also shows that with a 420gr bullet, the Lott is 3% faster. Why this anomaly? Well there is no reason other than they either have their data wrong, or this is simply how they have chosen to work up their loads.

The Lott should generate 5-10% more velocity given the same bullet weight, which will translate to a 10-20% increase in energy. Like it or not - these are the facts.

This is simple physics that cannot be disputed. Oscar, I’d just visit another website and let this one go!

 

[oscar1975]

You carry reason, physics does not lie. Thank you.

Oscar.

 

[kingcorona]

solution

Want a caliber that uses the full length of the 375 case,better sectional density and BC in a 500 gr pill? Want a bit more case capacity than a 458 Lott? Try a 470 Capstick....own both a 458 Lott and the 470 capstick...so I don't need to argue with myself over any issue......if they bore me I will pull out a 416 Rigby or my 500 Jeffery.......They are all great calibers....fun to shoot and true crowd pleasers and game wreckers.....so keep shooting.....gotta return that lead to it's rightful place....

 

[morioc]

Hello Oscar1975,
I am using a 458 Lott (23'' barrel, 480 woodleigh bullet soft and solid)for 15 years and I had to back up, elephants, hippos, buffaloes (from Benin, CAR and Tanzania), lions and other game and I never been disappointed in the field. Excellent caliber for hunters and PH. Just my experience. If you want to buy one just go ahead.
For fun, I ordered a 450 Rigby (23'' barrel, 550 grs bullet) to Paul Robert in England.
Cheers
Christophe

 

[oscar1975]

Hello Oscar1975,
I am using a 458 Lott (23'' barrel, 480 woodleigh bullet soft and solid)for 15 years and I had to back up, elephants, hippos, buffaloes (from Benin, CAR and Tanzania), lions and other game and I never been disappointed in the field. Excellent caliber for hunters and PH. Just my experience. If you want to buy one just go ahead.
For fun, I ordered a 450 Rigby (23'' barrel, 550 grs bullet) to Paul Robert in England.
Cheers
Christophe

I had forgotten this thread. I love your photo and would like could tell us how it went with his 450 Rigby cartridge and if that made you forget your 458 Lott.

Óscar

 

[oscar1975]

solution

Want a caliber that uses the full length of the 375 case,better sectional density and BC in a 500 gr pill? Want a bit more case capacity than a 458 Lott? Try a 470 Capstick....own both a 458 Lott and the 470 capstick...so I don't need to argue with myself over any issue......if they bore me I will pull out a 416 Rigby or my 500 Jeffery.......They are all great calibers....fun to shoot and true crowd pleasers and game wreckers.....so keep shooting.....gotta return that lead to it's rightful place....

Uff ... my dreams cartridge is the 500 Jeffery, but in Spain is inaccessible by the absurdity of our legislation. Since I read Tony Sanchez Ariño talk about him to remain enamored of 500 Jeffery. I sold my two rifles to buy one in the cartridge ... but things are well in Spain

 

[oscar1975]

At the end I have a 458 Lott; because the 470 Capstick is unknown in Spain and not even think I could find elements of recharge

Óscar

 

[Pondoro]

Oscar...please explain about gun legislation in Spain.....what kind of weapons can you own...? Any limit on max. number of guns..?

 

[oscar1975]

In hunting weapons : the number of rifles we can possess the Spaniards is unlimited. However there are cartridges like the 223 Remington or Winchester 308 that can not be used to hunt in semiautomatic weapons . Cartridges and above 12.7 mm in diameter and sheath slot we can not have .

We can have up to six shotguns and six guns of caliber .22 rimfire . The latter are prohibited for hunting can only be used in Olympic shooting and places for the purpose. Nor is permitted hunting with airguns .

In short that's what matters in relation to hunting .

Óscar.

 

[Pondoro]

Thank you Oscar...very interesting...

 

[CTDolan]

No, the 458 Win Mag cannot surpass the 458 Lott (obviously). However, have a look at the Hornady manual and you'll see just how close the two cartridges now reside. Each from a 24" barrel, the Lott only has 50-100 fps on the Win Mag (the latter doing a comfortable 2150 fps...plenty in the eyes of most).

 

[CTDolan]

That said, given the choice, I'd take the Lott, any day (just happen to like it better...really wish Winchester had the guts to chamber their rifle in the Lott, rather than their own .458, alone).