.470NE vs .500NE Recoil

[PHOENIX PHIL]

So on my recent trip to Serapa Safaris, I asked Jacques if I could touch of a round or two from his Merkel .470NE. The rounds were 500gr solids of Barnes variety I believe. Whatever the case I was quite pleased with the recoil. While you definitely know you've shot a big bore, I really did not feel any punishment from the rifle. Maybe shooting my short barreled lightweight .458B&M has prepped me for the double .470NE?

At the shows last year I spent a fair amount of time at the Verney Carron booth. Jerome the rep there advised me to go with the .500NE that from a "felt recoil" point of view, the .500 would feel the same or even less than the .470NE due to the case design. Mathematically this makes no sense at all, but those are just numbers and don't relate to felt recoil very well in my opinion.

So for those of you who have shot both of these calibers in properly fitting DRs, what say you in regards to the felt recoil between the two?

 

[Philip Glass]

Phil
Thanks for posting this because I have the same question. I have also only fired the .470NE.
Thanks
Philip

 

[Pondoro]

I have shot double rifles in .470 and .475 NE (and lesser calibers). Both had less felt recoil than my Brno 602 in .458Win Mag..

I have not fired a .500 but due to about the same velocity a .500 should not be much worse than a .470...its more about proper weight, fit and balance..

I did shoot a .600 double weighing in at 13,2 lbs. That is light for a .600 and supposed to be real bad. Well it was not. The recoil was long and heavy with a lot of muzzle climb but not painful.

Regarding choosing between a .470 and .500...unless you plan to do a lot of elephant hunting I would choose a .470. A .500 will have an edge on elephant..

Personally, if the moon was a swiss cheese, money not a parameter and big tuskers where plentyful and cheap to hunt I would have chosen a .577 0r .600 as a life insurance...but thats me..

 

[jand]

Phil , that really depends on the rifle itself. Verney builds a superb double. Well balanced and if custom built to your dimensions , it will have very manageable recoil , regardless of caliber.
BTW , Jerome is in fact Verney's Senior gun smith. He knows what he's talking about. Not just a salesman. Nice guy , I'm sure you discovered. A visit to the Verney facilty in St Étienne where they build their Double Rifles is an experience to behold .

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil , that really depends on the rifle itself. Verney builds a superb double. Well balanced and if custom built to your dimensions , it will have very manageable recoil , regardless of caliber.
BTW , Jerome is in fact Verney's Senior gun smith. He knows what he's talking about. Not just a salesman. Nice guy , I'm sure you discovered. A visit to the Verney facilty in St Étienne where they build their Double Rifles is an experience to behold .

Absolutely, Jerome is a top notch gent. I spent time with him both in Dallas and Vegas. Took pity on me I think when I told him my knowledge of DR's ended at knowing they had two barrels. He took the time to educate me on some of the basics and thoroughly explain proper fit for me. I have no reason to doubt what he told me regarding recoil, just wondering if others saw it the same way.

My dream would be to go to the factory in France and place an order there to be hopefully delivered at the shows. I like the Heym's too and their U.S. rep was also very helpful. But those VC's just seem a natural in my hands.

 

[jand]

Took pity on me I think when I told him my knowledge of DR's ended at knowing they had two barrels.

Lol , our trackers refer to a double as " Two Pipes"

 

[AZDAVE]

Phil, I have shot my 450NE double with 500gr at 2200 and a friends 500NE with 570gr at 2150. The 500 weight was about a 1.25 lbs heavier. The 450 fits me to a tee and the 500 was a little short on the LOP. But both have about the same felt recoil. Both are more of a hard push than a snap type recoil. The 458B&M loaded with 480gr CEB.s would fell about the same. Either will fit the bill for what you are looking. Both are about the same money to reload and get setup for so that is kinda a wash. I have shot a light 500NE ruger #1 and that will make sure your filling are in good. If you want to step down a bit the 450/400 is also a great calibre.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil, I have shot my 450NE double with 500gr at 2200 and a friends 500NE with 570gr at 2150. The 500 weight was about a 1.25 lbs heavier. The 450 fits me to a tee and the 500 was a little short on the LOP. But both have about the same felt recoil. Both are more of a hard push than a snap type recoil. The 458B&M loaded with 480gr CEB.s would fell about the same. Either will fit the bill for what you are looking. Both are about the same money to reload and get setup for so that is kinda a wash. I have shot a light 500NE ruger #1 and that will make sure your filling are in good. If you want to step down a bit the 450/400 is also a great calibre.

Perfect! I was hoping you'd reply Dave and you've put it in terms I can relate to. I've shot a 450/400 before, it's a pussycat. The .470 of Jacques' was less of a pussycat, but standing up no big deal. I'm thinking the question now is one of how much weight do I want to carry around. It would seem 10.5 pounds of rifle is plenty.

Now the real question is where does the freaking money come from to pay for this?!

 

[Uintaelkhunter]

Both should have about the same felt recoil with the 500 maybe a bit more because of the 570gr bullet vs a 500 out of the 470 but the straight case giving a bit smother powder burn curve may offset it in theory.
Now here is my personal experience I have shot both my Chapuis 470 and a friends K gun in 500 to me the 500 recoil felt the same but it did seem the muzzle climed a bit more. Both guns weight was very close and length of pull the same by the way both about a half inch short for what it should be for me. I would go with whatever you can find if you buy used if you are going new it's a coin toss I think both will do just fine and I would want anything bigger my rifle is just over 10lbs and to carry it all day for a few weeks is not bad but I would want more weight for a bigger gun.

 

[PaulT]

Phil, I would urge you to physically try a .500 before plonking down the spindoolas.

You know i'm not exactly recoil sensitive. I am quite comfortable shooting my 8.5lbs .500 MDM Ultra bolt-gun shooting 450gn Raptors at 2450fps.
To me, now-days, this feels comfortable.
In comparison, my 10lb .500 N.E felt noticeably more in terms of felt recoil.

I never owned a .470 of my own but fired numerous client rifles over the years and most, dependant on stock fit, were quite comfortable to shoot.
In comparison I find the .500 a bit of a "step-up" in terms of recoil and requires a slightly heavier rifle.
Several 9lb .470's i fired were quite manageable whereas I believe you will need at least 10lb in a .500 to be manageable.
Consider that a lot of .500's are over the 11lb mark.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Velo Dog]

Hi Phil,

I have fired I think 4 doubles in .470, as well as two different maker's double rifles in .500 NE.
In terms of technical physics, the heavier bullet of the .500 probably produces just a little bit more recoil than the slightly lighter bullet from the .470 does, rifle weight / dimensions otherwise being the same.
However, my perception of recoil from these two cartridges is approximately the same.
Both are hard kickers in my estimate, but not unbearable, even for a soft shouldered, limp wristed, espresso drinking looser such as I.

Since you found the .470 recoil to be well within your tolerance level, I would say that you will be fine with a .500 as well.
If I had enough money to commission a .450 NE, .470 or .500 NE double, made to my specifications (if frog had wings), I would prefer it to weigh just about 11 to 11.5 pounds.

AZ Dave mentioned the .450/.400 NE, and now the older myself and my shoulder get, the more I very much like that cartridge.
A rifle in that caliber seems like it'd be a real joy to both carry and to shoot at about 9.5 to 10 pounds.

Cheers,
Paul Dog.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil, I would urge you to physically try a .500 before plonking down the spindoolas.

You know i'm not exactly recoil sensitive. I am quite comfortable shooting my 8.5lbs .500 MDM Ultra bolt-gun shooting 450gn Raptors at 2450fps.
To me, now-days, this feels comfortable.
In comparison, my 10lb .500 N.E felt noticeably more in terms of felt recoil.

I never owned a .470 of my own but fired numerous client rifles over the years and most, dependant on stock fit, were quite comfortable to shoot.
In comparison I find the .500 a bit of a "step-up" in terms of recoil and requires a slightly heavier rifle.
Several 9lb .470's i fired were quite manageable whereas I believe you will need at least 10lb in a .500 to be manageable.
Consider that a lot of .500's are over the 11lb mark.

Just my thoughts.

Always appreciate your input Paul! Hope all is well in Oz for you and DeeDee. As the wind blows at the moment, I think I'm leaning towards the less hefty .470, but I must confess I'm a bit enamored at having a caliber in the cabinet that starts with a 5.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Hi Phil,

I have fired I think 4 doubles in .470, as well as two different maker's double rifles in .500 NE.
In terms of technical physics, the heavier bullet of the .500 probably produces just a little bit more recoil than the slightly lighter bullet from the .470 does, rifle weight / dimensions otherwise being the same.
However, my perception of recoil from these two cartridges is approximately the same.
Both are hard kickers in my estimate, but not unbearable, even for a soft shouldered, limp wristed, espresso drinking looser such as I.

Since you found the .470 recoil to be well within your tolerance level, I would say that you will be fine with a .500 as well.
If I had enough money to commission a .450 NE, .470 or .500 NE double, made to my specifications (if frog had wings), I would prefer it to weigh just about 11 to 11.5 pounds.

AZ Dave mentioned the .450/.400 NE, and now the older myself and my shoulder get, the more I very much like that cartridge.
A rifle in that caliber seems like it'd be a real joy to both carry and to shoot at about 9.5 to 10 pounds.

Cheers,
Paul Dog.

Might have to do one of those trips to visit you and your fellow eskimos for a DR shooting weekend.

 

[PaulT]

Always appreciate your input Paul! Hope all is well in Oz for you and DeeDee. As the wind blows at the moment, I think I'm leaning towards the less hefty .470, but I must confess I'm a bit enamored at having a caliber in the cabinet that starts with a 5.

Hey Phil, thanks for your best wishes, will say hello to Deidi for you, we certainly miss our catch-ups.

Take my comments for what they are worth.
Any double is a heck of a lot of money to most of us and I would hate to see you end up with something you don't enjoy shooting, or something that is simply to much of a burdon to carry very often.

Once, during an absolutely BRUTAL recovery of a client's bull several kilometers in the middle of a croc infested swamp (we stepped OVER croc tracks on the way in to the bull) my .500 weighed me down to the point where, nearing the point of sun-stroke, I actually considered leaving it behind.

You know what Mike always says, "every household needs at least three .50 cals" !!! the attraction of the .50 cals is almost tangible.
I get that, but would also venture that if it is your intent to regulate loads with the Raptors then you don't even need a .470
With some of todays bullets, e.g Raptors or Nth Forks personally I would opt for a lighter-built .450 unless I was planning to do A LOT of Elephant hunting.

If you do get a chance to fire a .500 and you're comfortable with it then absolutely go for it, they (the .500's) are absolutely devastatingly effective and wonderful to shoot and own, if not get something smaller, lighter and more practical and you'll enjoy using it more.

 

[Velo Dog]

Might have to do one of those trips to visit you and your fellow eskimos for a DR shooting weekend.

You would of course be very welcome here.

 

[sierraone]

Perfect! I was hoping you'd reply Dave and you've put it in terms I can relate to. I've shot a 450/400 before, it's a pussycat. The .470 of Jacques' was less of a pussycat, but standing up no big deal. I'm thinking the question now is one of how much weight do I want to carry around. It would seem 10.5 pounds of rifle is plenty.

Now the real question is where does the freaking money come from to pay for this?!

Money, money.....always it's money!!!!!

 

[Wheels]

Phil,

If you have a DR built, would you have scope mounts integrated or not?

 

[sierraone]

You would of course be very welcome here.

It may be we are making a potential gathering here, or is that gaggle? Hell, Phil is in Phoenix, he is nearly half way there already. No reason for him not to show up!

 

[Velo Dog]

It may be we are making a potential gathering here, or is that gaggle? Hell, Phil is in Phoenix, he is nearly half way there already. No reason for him not to show up!

The gathering is already planned (Cal's double rifle shoot, each summer here, in the general vicinity of Anchorage).
Exact month and day to be determined by Mr. Cal Pappas himself.

After the rifles are cleaned and put away, there is always the basement man cave at my place as well.
"The Safari Bar" - proudly serving whatever you bring.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil,

If you have a DR built, would you have scope mounts integrated or not?

I believe I would. I'm not an open sights experienced shooter. I think I'd give it a go and fall back on one of the red dot sights if that didn't work out.