.470NE vs .500NE Recoil

[stug]

Taking an animal with open sights is an amazing feeling. Accept the limitations of them and get in closer.
I do a lot of long range hunting, shooting animals out to 600yds is not difficult, my greatest and most satisfying hunting moment was to take a red stag at 93 yds using my 92 year old 9.3x62 Mauser.

 

[jand]

It sounds like you gentlemen ( and I use the term loosely ) have a yourselves a fine time lined up shooting doubles , and solving world issues at the " Safari bar " no doubt.

 

[49cub]

I've shot a chapuis 470 a few times and that recoil is very nice. I own a 500 nitro blaser s2. It's definitely more than the 470, I don't believe anyone would say they are comparable if shooting them side by side. Having said that, the 500 is not uncomfortable to fire at all. But the blaser is a fairly heavy double and that helps tremendously in recoil absorption!

Uncomfortable is my 505 Gibbs with 600 grains flying at 2200 ish. That one makes me think twice about firing more than 10 rounds at a time. The only thing stopping me when shooting the 500 nitro is the thought of how much each one shot is costing me.

 

[rookhawk]

The data says:

.470 N.E. (500 at 2150) 11.0 lb gun 69.3 foot pounds of recoil

.500 N.E. (570 at 2150) 12.0 lb gun 74.5 foot pounds of recoil

My BS detector is going off though. A 500NE is rather punishing compared to the slight anger of the 470NE. The 470NE has EXACTLY the same feeling as shooting a 20 gauge 3" slug rifle. You don't cry when it happens but you don't enjoy shooting 20 shots in a row. That's the 470. Off sticks, shooting 4 shots for a group of two from each barrel is really manageable for most people of most sizes.

The 500NE was more in the miserable arena in spite of the Internet data I found above. I question it. The 500NE also is generally a terrible design in that you lose the BC advantage of the 470. To keep a good BC on a 500 you need to shoot 570 grain bullets. The 470 is able to shoot with better penetration and options with their 500gr and less.

All bias towards the 470 aside, I have a 500 and its being sold. I want a 470 and that is what I'll own in the future.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

The data says:

.470 N.E. (500 at 2150) 11.0 lb gun 69.3 foot pounds of recoil

.500 N.E. (570 at 2150) 12.0 lb gun 74.5 foot pounds of recoil

My BS detector is going off though. A 500NE is rather punishing compared to the slight anger of the 470NE. The 470NE has EXACTLY the same feeling as shooting a 20 gauge 3" slug rifle. You don't cry when it happens but you don't enjoy shooting 20 shots in a row. That's the 470. Off sticks, shooting 4 shots for a group of two from each barrel is really manageable for most people of most sizes.

The 500NE was more in the miserable arena in spite of the Internet data I found above. I question it. The 500NE also is generally a terrible design in that you lose the BC advantage of the 470. To keep a good BC on a 500 you need to shoot 570 grain bullets. The 470 is able to shoot with better penetration and options with their 500gr and less.

All bias towards the 470 aside, I have a 500 and its being sold. I want a 470 and that is what I'll own in the future.

Thanks for the input rookhawk. I do have one question regarding your 500. Was it built for you? Do you know if it is a proper fit for you?

I ask not to challenge your opinion, as I don't have the background to do that. It's just when it comes to DRs from I've what read stock fit is extremely important and it is from that point of view that I ask.

 

[rookhawk]

@PHOENIX PHIL it was not built for me. It fit me very well. 99% of double rifles sold today don't fit for *%&$ for anyone. They are usually cheaply made through-bolted guns and therefore the stock is hideously oversized in general. (you know who the usual suspects are for this). Those that are custom stocked often are made by target shotgun makers and the stocks look like trap gun stocks...again, terrible fit and aesthetics.

Back to the fit issue more specifically, yes its important but I do not believe the felt recoil difference was due to fit. I think the 470 is a more pleasant gun with better ballistics, more bullet options and most importantly its more available in Africa if you need some ammo.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@PHOENIX PHIL it was not built for me. It fit me very well. 99% of double rifles sold today don't fit for *%&$ for anyone. They are usually cheaply made through-bolted guns and therefore the stock is hideously oversized in general. (you know who the usual suspects are for this). Those that are custom stocked often are made by target shotgun makers and the stocks look like trap gun stocks...again, terrible fit and aesthetics.

Back to the fit issue more specifically, yes its important but I do not believe the felt recoil difference was due to fit. I think the 470 is a more pleasant gun with better ballistics, more bullet options and most importantly its more available in Africa if you need some ammo.

Fair enough, thanks again for replying.

 

[jand]

Back to the fit issue more specifically, yes its important but I do not believe the felt recoil difference was due to fit. I think the 470 is a more pleasant gun with better ballistics, more bullet options and most importantly its more available in Africa if you need some ammo.

You are right rookhawk . It is better to shoot a rifle that one can shoot well and that one is not afraid of.

A bad fitting 470 will punish you more than a well fitted high quality 500 , or 600 though.

 

[PaulT]

For what-ever it's worth the factory ammo I chorny'd (Hornady) averaged 1950fps from my 22" barrels.
Driving that same bullet, 570gn, at 2150fps will be noticed.

My personal hand-load pushed the 475gn Safari Raptor at 2450fps and was absolutely devastating on buffalo.

Note projectile entry to the right of the left eye, exit is shown by the trail of blood flowing from the exit from the rear hip bone. This projectile has travelled over 8' through the head and busted the rear hip before exiting and leaving a big pool of blood. This buff hit the ground so hard his chin bounced off the ground !

 

[jand]

What powder and load were you loading it with Paul ?

Very impressive performance from the 500.

 

[PaulT]

What powder and load were you loading it with Paul ?

Very impressive performance from the 500.

Jan, the load was 110gns R15 behind a 475gn CEB Safari Raptor.
Average velocity is around the 2450fps which is what my particular rifle regulated that bullet at.
I could have closed the groups up slightly with 112gns of R15, giving close to 2500fps, but I was more comfortable with the previous load and really didn't need any more striking energy than what was being provided.
This particular load with this specific bullet transforms the .500 N.E in to another realm of cartridges that is difficult to describe until you physically see the performance on thick skinned game.

One day, whilst trying to stop a client's wounded bull from reaching a croc infested river I hit the bull (with the above load) in the gut, after miss-timing my lead, and dropped it liked it had just hit a train.
The bull eventually recovered, got back up and took off again so I lengthened my lead and let the second barrel go at 130yds and flattened him with a hit on the shoulder bone.
It toppled head over heals in an untidy heap. The client was gob-smacked.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Jan, the load was 110gns R15 behind a 475gn CEB Safari Raptor.
Average velocity is around the 2450fps which is what my particular rifle regulated that bullet at.
I could have closed the groups up slightly with 112gns of R15, giving close to 2500fps, but I was more comfortable with the previous load and really didn't need any more striking energy than what was being provided.
This particular load with this specific bullet transforms the .500 N.E in to another realm of cartridges that is difficult to describe until you physically see the performance on thick skinned game.

One day, whilst trying to stop a client's wounded bull from reaching a croc infested river I hit the bull (with the above load) in the gut, after miss-timing my lead, and dropped it liked it had just hit a train.
The bull eventually recovered, got back up and took off again so I lengthened my lead and let the second barrel go at 130yds and flattened him with a hit on the shoulder bone.
It toppled head over heals in an untidy heap. The client was gob-smacked.

Hard to fully explain in words how devastating those CEBs are isn't it? Based on your load info, it would seem a 500gr bullet out of your rifle would be roughly exiting at 2350fps. That would be about 200fps faster than the .470, that's significant to be certain.

 

[PaulT]

Phil, don't forget two important issues when dealing with this type of mono.

The first is that the heavier the bullet, the bigger and longer it will be, therefore consuming more powder space. I never used the 500gn Raptors but I doubt that you could achieve the velocity you are quoting, maybe i'm wrong.

The second is that this type of mono performs best when driven as fast as you can, hence going lighter weight than traditional and driving them at Mach 1V.

Cheers.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil, don't forget two important issues when dealing with this type of mono.

The first is that the heavier the bullet, the bigger and longer it will be, therefore consuming more powder space. I never used the 500gn Raptors but I doubt that you could achieve the velocity you are quoting, maybe i'm wrong.

The second is that this type of mono performs best when driven as fast as you can, hence going lighter weight than traditional and driving them at Mach 1V.

Cheers.

Yep on all of that. I was just trying to get an idea of the velocity difference between the two calibers when shooting the same bullet weight. But you bring up a good point. If you use what would be "normal" for caliber weight of the CEB bullets, you'd be shooting something less than the usual normal 570gr pills in the .500NE and less than the normal 500gr in .470NE. As such, less recoil.

When you ordered your VC, did they regulate yours with CEBs? Or did you do that yourself?

 

[PaulT]

When you ordered your VC, did they regulate yours with CEBs? Or did you do that yourself?

My VC was regulated with Hornady Factory ammo.

It's very simply to regulate with CEB's.
Sam has owned .500's from several different makers and has regulation loads available for most of them. He (Sam) is your very best reference for advice on this as he has a long history of ownership and usage.

 

[matt85]

I have shot a number of rifles in 400, 450, 470, 500, 577, 600, and even a 8 bore and a 4 bore (thanks to a number of forum members).

i can say with a fair bit of experience that the difference between a 470 and a 500 is small enough that you wont notice much of a difference in a properly fitted rifle. a fine example of this would be at a private shoot i recently attended courtesy of the Heym company.

Heym held a small competition shoot (of which i tied for last place) and i didn't have a rifle of my own suitable to attend at that time so i borrowed rifles from both Heym and another generous attendant. the first rifle i borrowed was a Heym "PH" in 470 NE and i shot "ok" with this rifle but it bucked hard causing me to hit myself with my own thumb every shot. I'm not sure if it was a good or a bad thing but half way threw the shoot the rifle had a firing pin issue and i was in need of another rifle. thankfully another shooter came to my rescue with a Heym "Safari" in 500 NE. having just had my butt kicked pretty good by a 470 NE i admit i was a little nervous before touching off the 500. but to my surprise the 500 NE just pushed me a little with each shot and my confidence was fully restored but it sadly too late to save my score in the competition.

the moral of my badly told story is that the fit of the rifle is more important then the chambering. id take a fitted 577 NE over a 450 NE that doesn't fit me.

The 500NE also is generally a terrible design in that you lose the BC advantage of the 470. To keep a good BC on a 500 you need to shoot 570 grain bullets.

I'm assuming you mean SD not BC (who cares about BC in DG bullet?). now calling the 500 NE a "terrible design" is a rather bold statement considering there is absolutely nothing a 450 NE or 470 NE can do that a 500 cant do and the 500 does it with a bigger hole.

-matt

 

[rookhawk]

Matt,

Look at the specs of 500gr 470 vs 500NE. Due to the increased diameter, the bullet gets stout. The increased diameter at equal weight nets less penetration.

The 470 does not appear to have any deficiency over the 500 and bullet properties are superior at lower than 500gr weights.

My complaint is that the 500NE doesn't get good SD until 570gr bullets neutering versatility.

470s regularly take long pokes with scopes and lighter bullets.

 

[CAustin]

Phil I have fired the Blaser 500 NE owned by Pieter Erasmus a grand total of four times. The felt recoil of that rifle is not as bad as my 458 Lott. The rifle certainly did not fit me as Pieter is taller and has longer arms.....but it's recoil was very manageable in my estimation. Frankly I would rather shoot it than m Lott.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil I have fired the Blaser 500 NE owned by Pieter Erasmus a grand total of four times. The felt recoil of that rifle is not as bad as my 458 Lott. The rifle certainly did not fit me as Pieter is taller and has longer arms.....but it's recoil was very manageable in my estimation. Frankly I would rather shoot it than m Lott.

Pretty much how I felt in shooting Jacques' .470 in comparison to my .458B&M. In fact significantly less felt recoil, I'm sure due to the weight of the DR being much more than mine.

I think this is going to come down again to how heavy a rifle do I want to carry and that may drive the caliber decision.

 

[matt85]

Matt,
Look at the specs of 500gr 470 vs 500NE. Due to the increased diameter, the bullet gets stout. The increased diameter at equal weight nets less penetration.

I think your making the difference out to be more then it really is. a 500gr .474" bullet has a SD of .318 while a 570gr .510" bullet has an SD 0f .313. a difference of .005 SD is not going to make a noticeable difference in an animal. the difference in length between the two is not that great and in the end they will both penetrate about the same.

here is a video where a guy does some simple testing with various cartridges including the 470 and 500. in this video the 500 actually outperforms the 470, however this test media isn't the most accurate material so its not perfect but it does still give you an idea.

-matt