.500NE/20Ga... .375/28ga.?

[Mark E]

Greetings all...Pardon if I step on toes here, or kick a subject that may already have been discussed, but I am working on an idea.

We have all probably seen the .58/20 gauges of Pedrosoli in Cabelas, right? Well, I am a double shotgunner, and am cautiously entering the double rifle scene, both as a builder and user. There was a post in this forum dealing with converting a double SHOTGUN to a double RIFLE. I decided to post a different direction-Here is my approach-since rifles would invariably need to be a stronger overall gun, a shotgun barrel set obviously would mate to the inital action and stock, and perform MECHANICALLY-but my question is, would the shotgun be as handleable as a shotgun designed as a shotgun? I currently have used both 12 gauge English field guns, and light 28 gauges. I understand the motions of using a double rifle mimic those of the shotguns-pointability, target aquisition, and instinctive reactions. I also understand the bigger calibers require a heavier gun, but... If I were to invest in a set of guns, with interchangable barrels, proportionally, say a .500 NE with a 20 gauge set, and a .375 H and H with a 28 gauge set-would I get the best of all worlds, or would I be bastardizing both the performances to have something that did something else, but not as well as any singular function? I likely will not be able to afford such an investement in this lifetime, but believe the question a worty one to raise ( I am building a double 18 gauge Manton muzzleloader with potentially a pair of .50 barrels-but it is a SHOTGUN first).

Any info is appreciated, and do tell me if I am waaaay off base here.

 

[saeng101]

No clue to your questions. Will say that I have a friend that had a Ruger 20ga O/U made into a 500NE, he likes it. I have not seen it and have a hard time thinking about loading the bottom barrel.

 

[35bore]

If you are a smithy, then go for it. If you are new then buy new/used.

I have really only seen a couple of guys pull this off. A SGT. with the local Sheriffs dept. who dabbles in the unique ever so often, created one of the most spectacular doubles I have ever seen, or shot. The key is regulating the damn thing, they were just inserts "turned down", but, he told me hours and hours went into this process. In the end, the rifle was AGAIN, fantastic to shoot.

If you are doing the work yourself, then go for it. If you are paying someone to do it for you, you may want to consider a nice used double.. My opinion, after getting the deputies quote to build me one

 

[Mark E]

No clue to your questions. Will say that I have a friend that had a Ruger 20ga O/U made into a 500NE, he likes it. I have not seen it and have a hard time thinking about loading the bottom barrel.

I understand Szecsei-Fuchs made an over and under rifle series (bolt action, no less-don't ask me how!)...I wonder how you would regulate these? To me, the effectiveness of a side by side is the same as artillery double impacting the same spot-opposed to the effect of two different hits, the effects would be exponentially more traumatic. An over and under I have always understood to be a specific configureation to wingshooters for rising birds...

 

[Mark E]

Interesting. I posted to another Post the potential usage of inserts for temporary conversion of a shotgun to a rifle...My concern is the power of the shells on the gun. Shotgun actions of doubles get beat up pretty soundly by turkey and goose loads, and the barrels are, at least in my experience of modern production guns, soldered rather than brazed to the ribs. I suppose you wouldn't go off and shoot 25 rounds of rifle ammo, though, so occasional shock may not matter.

 

[spike.t]

i have a jefferys double in 9.3x74r, and this was built with a set of 20 bore shotgun barrels as well. it shoots and handles great. chapuis among others supply shotgun barrels fitted to your double rifle as an option. i would have said that you would go for 12 bore on a 500 double , and 20 bore on a .375 double. with the .375/20 bore combo of barrel sets you could hunt anything anywhere with one gun. the .500/12 bore barrel combo set limits your hunts to big game, so not so practical.

 

[Mark E]

i have a jefferys double in 9.3x74r, and this was built with a set of 20 bore shotgun barrels as well. it shoots and handles great. chapuis among others supply shotgun barrels fitted to your double rifle as an option. i would have said that you would go for 12 bore on a 500 double , and 20 bore on a .375 double. with the .375/20 bore combo of barrel sets you could hunt anything anywhere with one gun. the .500/12 bore barrel combo set limits your hunts to big game, so not so practical.

20 ga., hmmm...I was concerned about the across the breech dimension, along with the availability of ammunition in countries where I would be hunting with a .375 as well, but in retrospect, I do not need to always count the 20 as being exclusively in the same settings as the .375. On the subject of regulation-with regard to a .375 (H and H)-what were most of the old guns regulated to? In my mind, a .375 is a longer range weapon, as opposed to a shorter range knockdown type. I really expect I would use it on animals such as water buffalo, lion (with a PH backing me up!), North American bear and moose...at or under 100 yards. I will likely invest in a pre-made double rifle, then get the smooth barrels fitted after, anyway-just investigating at this point.

 

[Mark E]

Further to last...I have emailed Chaupis (see message content below) concerning a few questions I have-including this particular one...If anyone is interested, I will share their reply if and when I recieve it.

"Greetings from the US! I have a few questions:

1. Would you be willing to offer your Agex Brousse double rifle in a .375 H&H calibre, but WITHOUT engraving, or at least with minimal engraving? As well as a stock finish that is more a matte than a high shine gloss? Same with the barrels-a matte finished or lower gloss as opposed to the high shine shown in your images?

2. What is the standard regulation of this calibre? Would a second pair of barrels in a different regulation compromise the construction of the gun if requested at time of production?

2. Are the springs and strikers in the action of this gun accessable and replacable by an individual afield? Is it possible to get an extra (or even 2) sets of spares of both springs as well as strikers?

3. I have been told that you can fit shotgun barrels to double rifle actions-Could a set of 20 gauge barrels be mated to the above rifle without extensive modification, if done at time of production?

I look forward to hearing from you, and until then...Regards,

Mark Eskra"

Got a blasted typo in there too. Shoot.

What I was trying to get at was I need (want, I suppose...) a double rifle that I can take "to battle" (as opposed to some of the oompa-loompa jewlery pieces out there), and a shotgun on a platform I trust. The questions of regulation may bring information to the table here as well-can the same system be made to shoot 100 and 300 yards, or must one completely reinvest in a second weapon to get the job(s) done? We have probably all seen sets of shotguns with 3 barrel sets to one butt, so why not separately regulated rifle barrel sets?

 

[AkMike]

The Chapuis dealer I used ws Dale Nygaard of Heirloom Armes. He's got a website and will meet or beat anyones best prices along with great service.

For a do it yourself project you reall need to get Ellis Browns book on building DR's on a SG action. The sizes you're suggesting are too small to safely handle those cartridges IMO. I have a 12 ga action by JP Sauer re-done into a 450 NE. I think the same action will work up to a 500 NE if properly done.

 

[Mark E]

For a do it yourself project you reall need to get Ellis Browns book on building DR's on a SG action. The sizes you're suggesting are too small to safely handle those cartridges IMO. I have a 12 ga action by JP Sauer re-done into a 450 NE. I think the same action will work up to a 500 NE if properly done.

I believe I may have been misunderstood...I am STARTING with a rifle action, NOT a shotgun action. I have seen double shotguns fall apart before 1,000 goose loads were run thru them, and if a gun is not recommended to fire turkey loads or slugs, I surely will not consider shooting cartridges with 5-10X the pressures. I understand the weaknesses of double shotguns-I have torn down a couple of Boss sidelocks, and seen catastrophic failures of several other systems. Shotgun plates are invariably thinner, and the bolts and fasteners smaller. Also, frame components are designed around weight as opposed to strength. I have seen cutaways on Holland and Holland rifle actions, and they are thicker, to allow more bite of bolts and less flex from recoiling action. The barrel locking mechanisms are also set up to accomodate recoil, and the barrels (that I have seen) are brazed together in a fashion that negates any separation. Stock geometry as well-a recoiling rifle requires a stock to transfer that recoil into the shooter in a different fashion than a shotgun. My question was would these strength improvements and geometry differences remove some function of usability or performance if a shotgun barrels were adapted to the rifle. Not being a double rifle shooter, I was unsure of the differences in handability.

 

[AkMike]

Excuse me I must have mis-understood.
From what I've been told it won't be as lively with a rifle action. I asked around when I ordered my Chapuis. I was considering haveing a second set of pipes made in 16 or 20 Ga for it. But for me the added 4K squelched that idea. I can get a nice SG for that price.

 

[Mark E]

Excuse me I must have mis-understood.
From what I've been told it won't be as lively with a rifle action. I asked around when I ordered my Chapuis. I was considering haveing a second set of pipes made in 16 or 20 Ga for it. But for me the added 4K squelched that idea. I can get a nice SG for that price.

That's what I am feeling at this point too-rifles are built the way they are for a reason, shotguns the same (at least doubles). The more I think about it, the more I feel I will end up with a double rifle, and then in my spare time may snag a set of donor barrels from Stoeger or Weatherby and tinker myself something up, without altering the rifle. 4k would buy a decent field gun...what am I saying, it would buy a heckuva shotgun at my pay scale!