A few questions for the reloading/double rifle gurus here.

[ET1775]

I am just getting re-started in reloading, I did a bit of reloading for precision rifles in the past with my father but it has been years and I have never reloaded for a double. I am now set up for reloading again and I have several calibers I will be working up loads for. I am planning to get a double in the next few months to a year, I have had very good success with Barnes TSX in the past on NA game and classic doubles notwithstanding I have read very good reports on the TSX performance on large and dangerous game - I plan to reload exclusively for the double and hope to use these bullets. I understand most doubles are regulated for something else, and if I purchase a modern double used it will be a matter of trial and error to build up a load for that rifle and I may not be able to find one that regulates well with the TSX bullet -am I correct in thinking this?

Buying a new double is a bit out of my range at the moment and honestly, I think starting used in order to jump in and see what I like, don't like and would do differently would be good details to sort out before putting money down later on a bespoke rifle. I am looking at used Heym, VC, Chapuis as possibilities. Merkel, Kreighoff, Blaser are not out of the running.

To my questions.

If I want a used, modern double in say, .470 NE that I will be hand-loading for with 500gr Barnes TSX is it as simple as tinkering with powder/primer selection to get velocity correct to get the two barrels to regulate with this ammunition? Or, is it a bit more mysterious and luck and unicorn dust come into play where I may work up a load that regulates nicely with a rifle regulated for a different bullet or I may be SOL and cannot get it to regulate at all?

If I cannot get a load to regulate, how expensive a proposition is it to have an expert like JJ Perodoux re-regulate to my load?

Do Nitro express rounds use large rifle or large rifle magnum primers? I can't seem to find a clear answer. Is there any issue in using magnum primers, much of my late season hunting is done in temps well below freezing. I understand that will not be the case when hunting Africa which is a goal in the next couple years.

I am a sponge and looking forward to any information and experience you are willing to pass on. Thanks!

 

[MMAL]

Typing on an iPhone but you are over thinking the process. A couple of answers from some experience. Obviously different bullets have different poi (point of impact) what I did with a used kreighoff that was was regulate with woodleigh bullets. Because kreighoff would not re-regulate with handloaded ammo I had hendershot (ask whomever ammo they will accept) work up a load with the bullet you want and the speed you want. Send ammo and gun to be re regulated. Kreighoff charged me @$300 because I supplied ammo (needed less than 20 shots). Then I laddered tested my hand loads and bullet with my preferred powder. It worked great with a frames, then found a solid that worked. I use large magnum. If a double doesn’t use magnum not sure what plbullet does. Hope this helps.

 

[ET1775]

Typing on an iPhone but you are over thinking the process. A couple of answers from some experience. Obviously different bullets have different poi (point of impact) what I did with a used kreighoff that was was regulate with woodleigh bullets. Because kreighoff would not re-regulate with handloaded ammo I had hendershot (ask whomever ammo they will accept) work up a load with the bullet you want and the speed you want. Send ammo and gun to be re regulated. Kreighoff charged me @$300 because I supplied ammo (needed less than 20 shots). Then I laddered tested my hand loads and bullet with my preferred powder. It worked great with a frames, then found a solid that worked. I use large magnum. If a double doesn’t use magnum not sure what plbullet does. Hope this helps.

That helps tremendously. Thank you.

 

[318AE]

TSX are a great bullet. Some, including me, are reluctant to use them in a vintage double. In a modern double, it shouldn’t damage the barrel, but won’t be what they were regulated with either.

In load regulation, I think you are playing a little game, about how abrupt the recoil “jump” is, and how long it takes for the bullet to travel down the barrel. Often, when you match the velocity for a similar to bullet to what the rifle was regulated for, it works pretty well.

I personally would not try to get a double re-regulated to work with TSX bullets. There are a lot of good bullets. Is a 500 grain A frame or Woodleigh not enough? A 500 grain copper clad, lead core bonded bullet will get the job done. Doubles are great, and they were great before monolithics came along….

If you work up a TSX load for a double, have fun and let us know how it goes!

 

[ET1775]

TSX are a great bullet. Some, including me, are reluctant to use them in a vintage double. In a modern double, it shouldn’t damage the barrel, but won’t be what they were regulated with either.

In load regulation, I think you are playing a little game, about how abrupt the recoil “jump” is, and how long it takes for the bullet to travel down the barrel. Often, when you match the velocity for a similar to bullet to what the rifle was regulated for, it works pretty well.

I personally would not try to get a double re-regulated to work with TSX bullets. There are a lot of good bullets. Is a 500 grain A frame or Woodleigh not enough? A 500 grain copper clad, lead core bonded bullet will get the job done. Doubles are great, and they were great before monolithics came along….

If you work up a TSX load for a double, have fun and let us know how it goes!

Good points all. Bonded, lead core bullets are certainly good enough, always have been and always will be but I like the lead free aspect (to stay one step ahead of idiots in politics) and I have had excellent success with the TSX line in the past. Also, and not least of which, I am starting to reload to have more control of what I shoot and to save money as ammunition continues to be fairly expensive. I have calculated component costs and I can reload .470 NE with the Barnes TSX for $3.10 per round averaged over 1000 rounds. That is significant in my mind for if I shoot factory ammo or a collection of more expensive components (when they can be found) I could be launching $10 bills or larger down range with every gloriously excessive trigger pull. Lead costs are likely only to rise in the future as many American lead refineries/smelters were shut down and operations were moved overseas over the past decade or two.
The money I save pinching pennies here and there can be eventually applied to a nicer double rifle and my first hunting trip to Africa.

With a modern double rifle there should be no major issue with using the mono bullets as far as damage to rifle, the regulation could be the sticking point if it proves too problematic. I am hopeful that I will be able to figure it out. One way to test the theory would be to pick up a new Merkel .470 DR for 9-10K to get into DR shooting, hunting and learning to hand load for it. All the other brands that interest me right now are considerably more expensive making it even harder to justify the purchase for the experiment. Though there is a nice VC I saw listed that might be negotiable. Eventually, I can sell up and get the Heym that I can't stop thinking about.

I agree that getting a rifle re-regulated for TSX bullets makes less sense. I am hoping I will be able to learn more specifics about hand loading to optimize the bullet choice to the rifle that is likely regulated to something else but in the same grain weight.

 

[Foxi]

I can only answer part of your questions

Soldered barrels often have a life of their own.
On the internet you always find only precision weapons.
In reality, unfortunately, it sometimes looks different.
On a good day, one barrel of my double rifle shoots a 3cm circle at 100m with a red dot on, but the other barrel doesn't want to join it.
It doesn't matter which bullet and load I use.
Each barrel can digest different bullets, I would not commit to one variant in advance. When reloading the large calibres you feel the price difference most clearly.

If the deviation is too great, the only solution is to have the barrels re-soldered by a gunsmith. In Germany, this costs f.e. about € 1,500,- + 40 rounds of ammunition, which he needs for this.

The big powder columns mostly have magnum primers.
Only the precision decides.I have never noticed any differences in ignition behaviour.

Double-barreled rifles are divas, beautiful, but also subject to whims,you don't always get happy with them

 

[Desperatezulu]

My 2c - think long and hard about the current and likely future availability of the bullet you choose.

The 470 Nitro is only chambered in double rifles for all intents and purposes - monos are not popular in doubles, for the reasons mentioned above, so demand for them is miniscule by comparison with other calibres. When Barnes is under production pressure, like it has been for the past couple of years, what bullets are most likely to make it to the top of the production run?

There are smaller 'boutique' type bullet makers that focus more on big bores - companies such as Woodleigh, North Fork (loosely) and Stewart (in RSA) who focus on lead core bonded bullets that are much closer in design to the old Kynoch bullets of yesteryear that most old (British) doubles were regulated with. And the afore-mentioned companies are much less preoccupied with the high volume, smaller calibres. Ergo big bores are more readily available and/or can be produced by special order.

Yes there are still no guarantees that these companies won't suffer from fires or bankruptcy. If you were really desperate, there is also Hornady DGX which is a similar design too. In the mono world, there aren't too many that are close/interchangeable in design to a TSX that come in .474...

Sure one option is to buy a lifetime's supply of TSX when they're available. I surely hope your double likes them cos there aren't going to be many buyers queuing if you need to offload them.

I hear you on the counter-argument that lead bullets may be banned at some point in the future and there may be no option but to go mono. I guess the probability of that coming to pass in your state/country would need to be weighed up too.

 

[Foxi]

@Desperatezulu
I didn't want to start a Hornady discussion. I see it similar like you do.
We get on well with Hornady.

Clean hit is the best bullet and a clean hit is the best calibre.

 

[Luvthunt]

Amen Foxi

 

[steve white]

Good points all. Bonded, lead core bullets are certainly good enough, always have been and always will be but I like the lead free aspect (to stay one step ahead of idiots in politics) and I have had excellent success with the TSX line in the past. Also, and not least of which, I am starting to reload to have more control of what I shoot and to save money as ammunition continues to be fairly expensive. I have calculated component costs and I can reload .470 NE with the Barnes TSX for $3.10 per round averaged over 1000 rounds. That is significant in my mind for if I shoot factory ammo or a collection of more expensive components (when they can be found) I could be launching $10 bills or larger down range with every gloriously excessive trigger pull. Lead costs are likely only to rise in the future as many American lead refineries/smelters were shut down and operations were moved overseas over the past decade or two.
The money I save pinching pennies here and there can be eventually applied to a nicer double rifle and my first hunting trip to Africa.

With a modern double rifle there should be no major issue with using the mono bullets as far as damage to rifle, the regulation could be the sticking point if it proves too problematic. I am hopeful that I will be able to figure it out. One way to test the theory would be to pick up a new Merkel .470 DR for 9-10K to get into DR shooting, hunting and learning to hand load for it. All the other brands that interest me right now are considerably more expensive making it even harder to justify the purchase for the experiment. Though there is a nice VC I saw listed that might be negotiable. Eventually, I can sell up and get the Heym that I can't stop thinking about.

I agree that getting a rifle re-regulated for TSX bullets makes less sense. I am hoping I will be able to learn more specifics about hand loading to optimize the bullet choice to the rifle that is likely regulated to something else but in the same grain weight.

Cry once, and get the Heym. Then you will be done when your load/ladder testing is complete. Another double will probably not use exactly the same reloading figures and you'll just have to start all over again, with resultant costs. But at least it will keep you off the streets...

 

[machinistbutler]

I bought a nicely upgraded Merkel in 470. It has shot everything I have put in so good. From my loads with the a frame or the woodleigh to factory Federal and factory Hornady it has hit so far above my expectations.

The Hornady factory I purchased for a great price. I think I ordered 11 or twelve boxes, great to practice with as all the loads of have tried have shot so close to each other .

I may have lucked out with this rifle, but it does truly shoot better than I do. Just need a ton of 4831 to keep it happy.


Craig

 

[ET1775]

I can only answer part of your questions

Soldered barrels often have a life of their own.
On the internet you always find only precision weapons.
In reality, unfortunately, it sometimes looks different.
On a good day, one barrel of my double rifle shoots a 3cm circle at 100m with a red dot on, but the other barrel doesn't want to join it.
It doesn't matter which bullet and load I use.
Each barrel can digest different bullets, I would not commit to one variant in advance. When reloading the large calibres you feel the price difference most clearly.

If the deviation is too great, the only solution is to have the barrels re-soldered by a gunsmith. In Germany, this costs f.e. about € 1,500,- + 40 rounds of ammunition, which he needs for this.

The big powder columns mostly have magnum primers.
Only the precision decides.I have never noticed any differences in ignition behaviour.

Double-barreled rifles are divas, beautiful, but also subject to whims,you don't always get happy with them

I too am used to precision weapons and prefer them, good point about everyone being a "sniper" on the internet, people don't tend to post their worst groups for all to critique.

I understand that DR are not for several reasons generally capable of extreme precision, at least as we understand it in relation to long range bolt rifles and that is not what I want it for. I am hopeful that whatever rifle I end up with will be fairly accurate, very consistent and able to be regulated well enough with the ammo I want to use. But, I am also cognizant of the reality that might not be the case.

In my mind, the well placed bullet does the work and I have certain bullets I prefer to use. I enjoy using Hornady bullets for my 6.5, I don't plan to use them for a DR though some makers regulate their guns with Hornady so I will be testing my luck with handloads in any rifle so regulated.

Thank you for the clarification on magnum primers, if I can ever find some in stock I will pick some up for handloading later. I will try out large rifle and magnum and see which regulates and ignites best in the rifle I end up with.

 

[machinistbutler]

It doesn't matter if you never hunt dangerous game, or even want to. Double rifles are works of mechanical art and are just a joy to own. Those that are fortunate enough to have a double know what I mean.

I do use magnum primers in my 470, there is a lot of powder to get going in that cigar tube of a case.

 

[ET1775]

My 2c - think long and hard about the current and likely future availability of the bullet you choose.

The 470 Nitro is only chambered in double rifles for all intents and purposes - monos are not popular in doubles, for the reasons mentioned above, so demand for them is miniscule by comparison with other calibres. When Barnes is under production pressure, like it has been for the past couple of years, what bullets are most likely to make it to the top of the production run?

There are smaller 'boutique' type bullet makers that focus more on big bores - companies such as Woodleigh, North Fork (loosely) and Stewart (in RSA) who focus on lead core bonded bullets that are much closer in design to the old Kynoch bullets of yesteryear that most old (British) doubles were regulated with. And the afore-mentioned companies are much less preoccupied with the high volume, smaller calibres. Ergo big bores are more readily available and/or can be produced by special order.

Yes there are still no guarantees that these companies won't suffer from fires or bankruptcy. If you were really desperate, there is also Hornady DGX which is a similar design too. In the mono world, there aren't too many that are close/interchangeable in design to a TSX that come in .474...

Sure one option is to buy a lifetime's supply of TSX when they're available. I surely hope your double likes them cos there aren't going to be many buyers queuing if you need to offload them.

I hear you on the counter-argument that lead bullets may be banned at some point in the future and there may be no option but to go mono. I guess the probability of that coming to pass in your state/country would need to be weighed up too.

Bullet availability is high on my list of priorities for bullet selection, second only to bullet performance. Despite production pressures I have consistently seen Barnes TSX and often Banded Solids available and in stock while many others are frequently unavailable. I will be handloading so that opens up the fun possibility of changing my mind down the road and experimenting with different combinations of projectile and powders to suit my needs and the particular DR's appetite. I got a killer deal on TSX and bought a bunch, if they don't regulate as well as I would like them to they will be used for practice, cutting firewood on my property and I will find another bullet I trust that regulates better.

I am aware of the boutique brands and I have no issues supporting them but I see them as potentially less consistently available over the long term. As for lead becoming illegal for ammunition, I live in Oregon and the rabidly, anti-liberty masses west of the Cascades are very likely to try to out-California the Californians when it comes to gun laws.

 

[ET1775]

Cry once, and get the Heym. Then you will be done when your load/ladder testing is complete. Another double will probably not use exactly the same reloading figures and you'll just have to start all over again, with resultant costs. But at least it will keep you off the streets...

A Heym is likely in my future, but I don't know if I want to wait a couple years to get my first double. The Heym would be an amazing 2nd DR though! I enjoy tinkering and experimenting and the starting over looking for an ideal load sounds like fun.

...also, a DR addiction would more likely put me on the streets, gotta make that rifle money somehow.

 

[ET1775]

I bought a nicely upgraded Merkel in 470. It has shot everything I have put in so good. From my loads with the a frame or the woodleigh to factory Federal and factory Hornady it has hit so far above my expectations.

The Hornady factory I purchased for a great price. I think I ordered 11 or twelve boxes, great to practice with as all the loads of have tried have shot so close to each other .

I may have lucked out with this rifle, but it does truly shoot better than I do. Just need a ton of 4831 to keep it happy.


Craig

Congrats on an easy to feed DR! I have looked at a couple basic level Merkels, do you have any complaints or concerns about them mechanically? Reliability is my top priority for a DR.

It doesn't matter if you never hunt dangerous game, or even want to. Double rifles are works of mechanical art and are just a joy to own. Those that are fortunate enough to have a double know what I mean.

I do use magnum primers in my 470, there is a lot of powder to get going in that cigar tube of a case.

I love functional art and nice things, however, while most shots will be in practice and fun I do have every intention of hunting anything I can legally hunt and afford to hunt with the double(s) I choose. I have no safe queens.

 

[bill73]

I re-load for a few DR'S,you will need a chrono,you need to know how fast your loads are?anything 450-400 & up is a magnum primer,you can load with more than one powder in most big bores,for example in my 470,I load R 15 & use a filler for lower case fill & lower recoil,or you can go IMR 4831 & fill more of the case for the same performance & more recoil,I tinker a lot with my loads,I will use different weights of bullets other than what the guns are regulated for & find a load that works,I have yet to find a problematic gun that needed re-regulation,some examples are,470 NE I have the standard 500 gr load for heavy game,for smaller game I use a 400 gr bullet,458 Lott,I have loads for 500,450,400 & 350 grain bullets,500-416,I have the standard factory load of 410 gr @ 2350 & a 300 gr Tsx @ 2300 for plains game,there is really no mystery to this,like I said a Chrono is your best friend,velocity is your guide,too slow usually too far apart,too fast the shots will cross,I do not use factory ammo for any hunting that I do,instead I load & choose a bullet for the job at hand,hope I did not confuse you,there is plenty of load data on the net,use it as your starting point & always start below max,cheers all the best.

 

[Ivorygrip]

Just my thoughts as I was very recently in the same boat you are.
I found a Merkel in the caliber I really wanted the 500NE I got it used for a good deal.
I am somewhat different from a lot of double shooters because I want to use strictly mono bullets for hunting. I am a firm believer in how they work.
I also love the conventional bullets as well not to be confused…
I started using the CEB 475gr raptor paired with the the CEB 510gr #13 solid. From the extensive tests and research done while they were designed a lot of barrel strain tests were done with all different types of doubles and the driving band style design on the CEB bullets showed very low and consistent strain of barrels compared to lots of conventional bullets.

The regulation for my gun went very well, merkel did a superb job making it and I have shot CEB, Barnes and hornady thru it and made well regulating loads for all of them.
The appealing thing about the CEB bullets to me was the design and test data from them and I had to see for myself.
following lots of test results I opted for Alliant Reloader 15 with the CEBs my final load is the 475gr Raptors at 2360fps and the 510gr #13 Solid at 2350fps verified by lab radar. At these velocities the 510gr will out penetrate the 570gr… And also offer a bit flatter trajector.
if you are set on the mono bullets I could not recommend the CEB enough, as far as the company I do not see them ever going under, they are currently the most popular producer of bullets for the king of 2 mile shoots.
and are produced in USA.


I have only ever used Federal 215 primers In the 500 loads and would bet they would be the best choice for burning all that powder in the 470 as well.
It was a very fun project for me, I thro enjoyed the regulation and load development proces.
wish you the best of luck with it.