Developing a flinch

[rookhawk]

Ok all! I'll be attaching some pictures and videos my wife took today.

Did you observe any recoil relief with the change of body position and hold? Is still only occasional donkey punches to the face?

 

[One Day...]

I am with rookhawk on this one, shooting form is likely the issue

I do not pretend to be an expert, Eventually_Africa_Again, but a well handled double rifle of any caliber up to .500 NE should have very little jump under recoil off the sticks.

For example, here is a quick video of myself shooting my .Krieghoff 470 with 500 gr full loads.

IMG_4496.MOV

drive.google.com

Because I am on the sticks, in order to "load" them, .e. lean on them of prevent front to back sway, my left foot is not as far forward as it would be off hand, but it is positioned to give me a wide stance to prevent side to side sway. The idea is to form a triangle between rifle rest on the sticks and the two feets.

You can see that I do lean and "hunch" forward on the rifle, even though I do not have a deep cheek weld because I am using a red dot on it (old eyes!).

The real secret on high recoil rifles, as rookhawk mentioned is to really hold them tight so that they have no room to hit and all they can do is push.

Pretty accurate shooting can be done this way, even with the big bores. For example, here is the 50 yard group I was shooting that day, testing a new batch of Norma PH Woodleigh solids. 3 pairs of right/left grouped in 2" at 50 yards, left barrel on left side, right barrel on right side - the credit goes to the rifle, with each barrel shooting approximately 1" - the credit goes to shooting form. 3 clicks left on the Leica Tempus red dot (1.1 MOA each, i.e. 0.55" each @ 50 yards) brought the group dead center...

I hope this helps

PS: apologies for the white chicken legs, it has been a long COVID confinement

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

Here are the pictures

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

Here are the pictures

I'll need to wait till I get home to format the slow motiond

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

Did you observe any recoil relief with the change of body position and hold? Is still only occasional donkey punches to the face?

I did! It actually only bit me twice, which I fortunately have slow motion of!

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

I am with rookhawk on this one, shooting form is likely the issue

I do not pretend to be an expert, Eventually_Africa_Again, but a well handled double rifle of any caliber up to .500 NE should have very little raise under recoil from the sticks.

For example, here is a quick video of myself shooting my .470 with 500 gr full loads.

Because I am on the sticks, in order to lean on them my left foot is not as far forward as it would be off hand, but you can see that I do lean and "hunch" forward on the rifle, even though I do not have a deep cheek weld because I am using a red dot on it (old eyes!).

The real secret on high recoil rifles, as rookhawk mentioned is to really hold them tight so that they have no room to hit and all they can do is push.

IMG_4496.MOV

drive.google.com

Pretty accurate shooting can be done this way, even with the big bores. For example, here is the 50 yard group I was shooting that day, testing a new batch of Norma PH Woodleigh solids. 3 pairs of right/left grouped in 2" at 50 yards, left barrel on left side, right barrel on right side - the credit goes to the rifle, with each barrel shooting approximately 1" - the credit goes to shooting form. 3 clicks left on the Leica Tempus red dot (1.1 MOA each, i.e. 0.55" each @ 50 yards) brought the group dead center...

View attachment 402549

Apologies for the white chicken legs, it has been a long COVID confinement

I'm 90% sure it's me, not the rifle, and don't worry about the legs. I've seen worse lol

 

[One Day...]

Here is your answer

Observe the difference in our backs: your leans backward, mine leans forward.

As shown in the video, when shooting off the sticks, this prevents the rifle from jumping up and kicking, even though a full load .470 recoils considerably more than a .450/.400.

The proper "load" on the sticks, leaning forward onto them, is that if someone was swiping them away, you would fall forward...

IMG_4496.MOV

drive.google.com

 

[bruce moulds]

i just looked at the double rifle on the chapuis website.
first point noticed was the tightness of the pistol grip.
more suited to a target rifle.
tight pistol grips tend to allow the shooter to pull the gun into the shoulder with the trigger hand.
this an absolute no no.
second obvious flaw in design is the immense amount of drop at heel.
this feature from pre napoleonic times is guaranteed to hit you in the cheekbone, particularly when things get a bit western.
this just goes to show that putting engraving and fine finish on a rifle, and charging a lot for it, can at best only be described as implying good design, and at worst avoiding it altogether.
bruce.

 

[One Day...]

I shall respectfully disagree
The pistol grip shape allows for a solid grasp of the shooting hand, which avoids the painful issue of hitting the rear of the trigger guard with the second finger, and the drop at the heel is designed to allow lining the sighting eye low on the barrel iron sights.
I have shot extensively Chapuis double rifles in European and African calibers, and they are well proportioned

 

[Rare Breed]

If it is jumping you almost certainly have too much drop and possibly the pitch is off. A double
Rifle shoots like a shotgun, fit is critical. If the fit is off you are going to hate it. Fit on a scoped rifle is important but nearly as critical. There are some good gun fitters in the US. My buddy at H&H is one of the best if you ever find your way to London.

Agree. Fit is everything. I bought a new 470 NE with the wrong LOP and too light and it kicked me to death. I got measured then bought a new 450-400 at the right weight and the DR shoots like a dream. I fired 17 shots just yesterday and absolutely a pleasure to shoot

 

[Rare Breed]

I shall respectfully disagree
The pistol grip shape allows for a solid grasp of the shooting hand, which avoids the painful issue of hitting the trigger guard with the second finger, and the drop at the heel is designed to allow lining the eye low on the barrel iron sights.
I have shot extensively Chapuis doubles in European and African calibers, and they are well proportioned

1+ on One Days comment

 

[rookhawk]

Here are the pictures

Definitely some shooting form issues going on there. Gun looks short for you, but that isn’t why you’re hurting. Look at your shoulders that are behind your hips. It’s like you’re trying to avoid a close-talker with bad breath. Proper form should look like you’re trying to hug Dolly Parton while your wife is watching.

 

[rookhawk]

 

[rookhawk]

Before we all go commenting on rifle too short, please be aware that there are several things that are giving the illusion of a short gun, or are amplifying that the gun is short.

 

[rookhawk]

Okay, another photo. Your head is rolling over the top of the stock. Ouch!

Imagine you have a broken neck. You are forbidden from moving it left and right. It stays straight. However, you’re allowed to move it forward. Bring that elbow up closer to a shotgun shooting stance to make a deeper shoulder pocket. Do not roll your head over the top of the comb. Your head moves forward and sits on the side of the comb. And in one photo, the butt plate at the heel is an 1” low on your shoulder. Again, get that comb up by bringing the elbow up.

Also, you’re holding the forend which seems reasonable as it looks like a grip. It’s not a grip, its a wood object to hold the barrels on. Get your forehand further forward on the forend near the juncture of the forend and the barrels. Many folks actually point with their index finger on their left hand. This is helpful because you instinctively will shoot at things you point at. Point your finger down the barrel with it sitting in the recess of the lower rib. Your palm on left hand will be holding the rounded front of the forend.

And above all, you are shooting off your heels and you’re all bent backwards. You should be almost off balance so if your wife gives you a modest shove from behind, you should fall forward on your face. You’re just the opposite, trying to put all your weight on your heels and you’re arching your back and pushing out your stomach.

I wish you lived near me. We’d fix all of this over a two day shooting weekend of side by side shotguns and a case of 250 rounds of light loads. Then you’d shoot your double rifle 10 rounds and feel cocky-good. Your form shows you are not a wingshooter and you do not own side by side shotguns. If you really want to be great, go get a SxS and you’ll build a lot of muscle memory very quickly. Even better, get a pair of 20 gauge barrels for that double rifle and shoot the hell out of them.

 

[rookhawk]

Here is your answer

Observe the difference in our backs: your leans backward, mine leans forward.

As shown in the video, when shooting off the sticks, this prevents the rifle from jumping up and kicking, even though a full load .470 recoils considerably more than a .450/.400.

The proper "load" on the sticks, leaning forward onto them, is that if someone was swiping them away, you would fall forward...

View attachment 402555 View attachment 402556

IMG_4496.MOV

drive.google.com

This. Check out @One Day...

His head is erect, not leaning or Rolling over that comb one bit. He is weight forward as you can see, probably about 75% or 80% of his body weight on the balls of his feet, not his heels. He’s about to sway back when he fires under recoil. His left forearm is not as far forward as I would prefer, but look at it and its still a fairly natural, soft bend. Your forearm is at nearly a 90 degree bend at elbow.

 

[chashardy]

My compliments to Rookhawk and One Day for their very good comments and advice on proper gun mount and stance. This thread is good instruction for anyone learning to shoot big bore rifles using sticks or shooting offhand. I've learned a lot from following this thread. I particularly like Rookhawk's comments about wingshooting experience with shotguns as help for proper gun mount of a big bore double rifle.

 

[machinistbutler]

Great replies to this thread. I shall use the suggestions when I get to try mine out.

The stock on @Eventually_Africa_Again double just looks beautiful. I hope he gets the recoil part sorted soon to enjoy it!

Craig

 

[Hunter4752001]

+1 on the compliments to Rookhawk and One Day. In reading this one thread I've learnt more about shooting the big bores than I have from any other experiences. (Maybe now I'll be able to hit the broadside of a barn and not just the planet it's built on )

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

Ok, here are the videos!