How (I Personally Believe) The Future Of Hunting Can Be Saved

[Major Khan]

Major, I find this segment to be the most interesting so far. I have a bit of a different take on it though. I’m 31 and would like to hunt in Africa for another 40 or 50 years I hope. In my opinion, the future of African hunting is going to depend on importation into the United States (and Europe) and this is going to depend on public perception of hunting. Captive bred lion hunting adds no conservation value and really hurts the image of trophy hunting. My issue isn’t with killing a captive bred lion, it is with the damage this causes to the hunting image leading to public support to ban trophy importation from the non-hunting neutral public. If the hunting you are doing isn’t contributing to conservation it can’t be defended. Lions are unfortunately an emotional animal to a lot of people. Raising lions on a farm to be released, tracked down and shot a month later is impossible to defend. The arguments for doing it here on other threads always comes down to just money and I think that is a very short term view.
Another issue I see is with lead shot. The amount of resistance to copper or steel is very surprising to me. Steel shot has greatly improved but the old arguments continue. Lead is toxic, every box of 25 bullets is 1 pound, whether that be shot in a dove field, clay course, or a duck pond. Cheap lead bullets lose most of their mass passing through an animal, those fragments are still there. It’s really sad to me to know eagles die of lead poisoning after deer season here in Pennsylvania because of eating gut piles with lead fragments just because they were the cheapest bullet on the shelf. A hunter here actually made the argument to me that the game commission did such a good job bringing the eagles back it’s ok if a few die from lead poisoning, which I think is really sad way to think. We have good steel and copper options now it’s not necessary.
My point with these two topics is the support every hunter just because we are hunters argument is foolish. Pushing for reasonable reforms ourselves will improve our image to the non-hunting public instead of having other groups push it on us. This is how I see hunting being preserved in the long run.

To be very honest , 375Fox ... I can not lie to you . I have very little idea about the concept of “ Canned Lion Hunting “ . There fore , I do not wish to comment about some thing ... Which I had no idea of . During my career as a professional shikaree , and my life as a hunter ... All the panthers and royal Bengal tigers which I have hunted , were 100 % wild . How ever , after I joined African Hunting forums ... I learnt that many of our fellow forum members DO partake in “ Canned Lion Hunting “ . While ( Obviously ) no where as thrilling as a hunt for a wild African lion ... I suspect that there is more to it , than merely shooting a captured lion inside a farm or an enclosed space . I shall be needing to conduct more research on how “ Canned Lion Hunts “ are actually conducted , though .

In regards to our “ Image “ in front of the anti hunters ... I genuinely doubt that they will ever see us as any thing other than monsters , regardless of what we do . So , I could not care about them ... Any less . In the eyes of the neutral people ... If “ Canned Lion Hunting “ has any positive attributes to it , then I am quite certain that appropriate steps can be taken to educate them on it .

I should add , right now ... That I do plan on hunting an African Lion in Namibia , 2 years down the line . And I personally insist that it must be a wild African Lion . Are my reasons , for any perceived “ Ethics “ ? Absolutely not . I simply view hunting a wild African Lion ... To be the purist African safari experience . And far more thrilling , than a “ Canned Lion Hunt “ can ever be .

On the subject of lead ammunition ... There are various contradictory reports about whether or not lead is actually harmful for the eco system ( And if so , then to what degree ) . I do not wish to comment up on that , either .

I merely mentioned “ Canned Lion Hunting “ and “ Lead Shot “ in my article ... As samples of issues , which typically cause internal rifts among the international hunting community .

You personally feel that the idea of the entire international hunting community , being united by the mere fact that we hunt ... Is foolish . You are 100 % entitled to your personal views . Different people have different experiences in life ... Which lead them to form different conclusions . I personally believe that the mere fact that so many people across the globe , want us gone ( Simply because we hunt ) ... Is ample reason why we support EVERY hunter across the globe ( With in reason , of course ) and strengthen our numbers .

 

[Mort Hill]

I have raised both my adopted sons with full access to the outdoors. One is 26 now, the other is 20.

While my oldest son has never hunted, he fishes a lot with me, but my youngest still gets offended if Pops goes on a hunting or fishing trip without him.

My oldest has now expressed an interest in starting to hunt. I am thrilled that a seed is starting to sprout(on his time, not mine mind you).

They both grew up with the venison I had taken through the fall/winter season being grilled for dinner. They both still make special trips to the house when they know I am firing up the grill.

I regularly have cookouts for as many as a dozen young men(ages 20-26), friend of both my sons where I will grill no less than three to four whole backstraps, with all the fixins’, just because they all have come to know what an event this is. Nothing thrills me more than when they all walk through the house and my trophy room, and ask me to tell them the stories of the hunt.

I always invite a table full of these young men to come to our Safari Club chapter banquet, or to meet at thr gun club for a round of clays.

You are absolutely right Major that if we ignore our responsibility to the youth of today, then we will reap what we sow.

Of all your well thought out points and arguments, our youth are where we need to win this battle.

I will admit in a moment of weakness that yes, it is more fun to be with my generation on a hunt, and yes it is easier to grill a steak for two than for a herd, and yes it is nicer to spend money on two trips for myself, than double the cost to take my sons; but, in the end, I have already experienced several lifetimes worth of hunting and fishing. I have been richly blessed beyond measure( I purposely did not say wealthy because it has been my choice to spend what money I have on outdoors activity). So what I do is intentional for those who can and will make a difference for that next generation of hunters and fishermen. Our youth are our key to the preservation of what we too often take for granted.

Thank you Major for once again fanning my flames, and making feel like I need to do more!

 

[375Fox]

To be very honest , 375Fox ... I can not lie to you . I have very little idea about the concept of “ Canned Lion Hunting “ . There fore , I do not wish to comment about some thing ... Which I had no idea of . During my career as a professional shikaree , and my life as a hunter ... All the panthers and royal Bengal tigers which I have hunted , were 100 % wild . How ever , after I joined African Hunting forums ... I learnt that many of our fellow forum members DO partake in “ Canned Lion Hunting “ . While ( Obviously ) no where as thrilling as a hunt for a wild African lion ... I suspect that there is more to it , than merely shooting a captured lion inside a farm or an enclosed space . I shall be needing to conduct more research on how “ Canned Lion Hunts “ are actually conducted , though .

In regards to our “ Image “ in front of the anti hunters ... I genuinely doubt that they will ever see us as any thing other than monsters , regardless of what we do . So , I could not care about them ... Any less . In the eyes of the neutral people ... If “ Canned Lion Hunting “ has any positive attributes to it , then I am quite certain that appropriate steps can be taken to educate them on it .

I should add , right now ... That I do plan on hunting an African Lion in Namibia , 2 years down the line . And I personally insist that it must be a wild African Lion . Are my reasons , for any perceived “ Ethics “ ? Absolutely not . I simply view hunting a wild African Lion ... To be the purist African safari experience . And far more thrilling , than a “ Canned Lion Hunt “ can ever be .

On the subject of lead ammunition ... There are various contradictory reports about whether or not lead is actually harmful for the eco system ( And if so , then to what degree ) . I do not wish to comment up on that , either .

I merely mentioned “ Canned Lion Hunting “ and “ Lead Shot “ in my article ... As samples of issues , which typically cause internal rifts among the international hunting community .

You personally feel that the idea of the entire international hunting community , being united by the mere fact that we hunt ... Is foolish . You are 100 % entitled to your personal views . Different people have different experiences in life ... Which lead them to form different conclusions . I personally believe that the mere fact that so many people across the globe , want us gone ( Simply because we hunt ) ... Is ample reason why we support EVERY hunter across the globe ( With in reason , of course ) and strengthen our numbers .

To explain my experiences that have led me to my opinion. I have worked in many different areas of the United States and also in Western Canada and am always required to travel. What I have found is that there are very few true anti-hunters, there are however many non-hunters who have been exposed to anti-hunting media as you pointed out. Because people know big game/international hunting is my passion, I am asked a lot of different questions. So to my point that the support every hunter just because we are hunters argument is foolish, most of these non-hunters are very willing to listen to reason and at very least be willing to look at both sides, but if we simply support other hunters just because, we risk turning these non-hunters into anti-hunters and accelerating our losses. If we want to continue trophy hunting (meat hunting is much more widely accepted I find) we have to be able to demonstrate conservation value and a high ethical standard. Attached is one of the best hunting is conservation arguments I have seen presented, I have had a lot of non-hunters watch this over years because I think it helps our cause so much

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The vegan invasion is alive in well in the U.S. and perpetrated by some of the largest corporations. Want an environmentally friendly plant based burger? Go to Burger King, the second largest burger eatery in the world. Want meatless meat? The big agribusinesses are hard at work in the vegan world. Seven publicly traded corporations listed here:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/7-stocks-buy-ride-vegan-165923819.html

I agree with Major. The Vegans and their movement are an abomination and a threat not only to hunting but to the entire meat producing industry. Personally, I know two of them and both are certified, misguided whack jobs.

@Hogpatrol
Laugh ye not mate. One supermarket in our area has introduced VEGAN JERKY. go figure that bullshit.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Well , 375Fox ... That is why I have my younger readers , such as yourself . So that you can educate me on the more up to date methods of ensuring that our message reaches the masses .

@Major Khan
Friend Ponton
Just show them the photo of a truck load of guns being taken to be crushed and melted down.
That should change their minds.
Bob

 

[Major Khan]

The food and travel shows of Anthony Bourdain and Gordon Ramsey have done a great job of explaining both the cultural and ecological aspects of hunting, as well as actually showing the hosts participating.

Why , yes ! That is 100 % correct , Saul . I used to be a massive admirer of Mr. Bourdain ( Prior to his unfortunate demise ) and I especially loved his episode in New Orleans . It really did a great deal ... To promote New Orlean’s hunting culture . I recently watched Mr. Ramsay’s episode of hunting feral goats in Australia .

In today’s day and age ( When all television shows must be politically correct ... In order to secure ratings ) ,it is exceptionally relieving to see celebrities who actually are not afraid ... To publicly highlight the countless positive aspects of hunting .

 

[Major Khan]

Poton, a couple of the African countries that previously allowed hunting now ban it. It seems to me that one of those countries is trying to "open up" hunting once again. Your comments about "us" giving an inch and the antis want to take a mile are spot on. In fact the NRA is often accused of not acquiescing to "reasonable" gun rights restrictions. The NRA's response has been exactly what you mentioned. BTW there is a lot more truth in what you said than some might be willing to admit.

You ROCK Poton!!!

Why thank you so much for your kind words , Shootist43 . I am most flattered . I always personally believe that the ONLY way by which we may be able to cure all of our problems ... Is by talking about things , which no one wishes to talk about . And by raising issues which no on dares to raise . Caving in , to the demands of the antis ... It shall NEVER appease them . It Shall merely embolden them .

 

[Major Khan]

Poton..........many people complain about a problem, but never propose a solution. You have a potential solution, and I commend you for it. There are always ostriches when a problem is looming. This thread shows that AH is no exception. Had I told anyone 20 years ago that we might lose freedom of speech in the USA, they would have only laughed. But here we are.
Similarly with the anti hunting threat. We actually have no idea what the worldwide cumulative opinion on hunting is right now. In 2017 Byrd and Widman published a good scientific paper that showed, in a huge sample, that 63% of Americans (that word is banned at CSU) are opposed to trophy hunting. Though the majority approved some form of hunting. In the UK, four large studies in the last 10 years all ran about 70% opposed to any hunting.
Caveats: Sample populations help determine the result. Poll at a PETA meeting or at an SCI convention, get differing results. Even different wording can have a huge effect. So the data is open to interpretation, but the Byrd, et al study included 65% who had eaten game meet in the last year....so it could have been worse. In the rest of the world, we have no idea.
With only 4.6% hunters in the USA, we could be legislated out in a month when the crowdspeak mob takes control. And if you thing they all like to talk and discuss rationally, look at the AH Forum on "Animal Rights" terrorists. They are often not peaceful at all.
You and PARA45 are right on. Stand up, be counted, know your subject, and never let a man with leather shoes and belt tell you how evil you are. I respect a vegan, but never a hypocrite. Thanks for the post. FW Bill

Why thank you so much for your kind words , Bill . I noticed the exact same thing , which you have observed ,.. As well . Every body always complains about how the anti hunters keep going after our values and our life style . How ever , no one ever actually proposes to DO SOME THING about it . I specifically wrote this article , as a guide ... To how ( I personally believe that ) we may be able to counter these tree hugging swines , once and for all .

 

[Jfet]

In the U.S.A. the Outdoor Tomorrow Foundation which is the driving force behind over 500 schools public and private across the country teaching an Outdoor Adventure Class. This non-profit developed from DSC's education mission.

Contact Scot McClure and find out how you can get this program into your local schools. Then go grab you local principals and superintendents and make them offer the program. The schools will not be able to offer enough classes for the interest that will be generated.

https://www.gootf.com

 

[Major Khan]

Last polls in the Netherlands are showing that a majority is for hunting. The Royal Dutch Hunting Association is doing, finally after decades without action, its job. That said it is showing a support for the hunting that takes place over here.

I think support for hunting DG in Africa would not be as favorible. That's a shame because the principle is the same. But babysteps at a time...

That , Die Jager ... Is exactly why I always visit the Netherlands , once every 2 years . The country is filled with my my kind of people ( And Dutch cheeses are magnificent delicacies ! ) .

In Bangladesh , we have a similar predicament . EVERY BODY ( Fortunately ) supports deer hunting , boar hunting , water fowl hunting , hare hunting , jungle fowl hunting and predator control . Public opinion about hunting Asiatic elephants , royal Bengal tigers , panthers and bears ... Is sadly mixed . How ever , every body supports dispatching man eaters , rogue elephants and problem bears .

EVERY BODY in Bangladesh DESPISES crocodiles ( Due to the massive numbers of our locals ... Whom these brutes devour , on a monthly basis ) . This is why we dispatch these saurian brutes , indiscriminately .

 

[Major Khan]

In the U.S.A. the Outdoor Tomorrow Foundation which is the driving force behind over 500 schools public and private across the country teaching an Outdoor Adventure Class. This non-profit developed from DSC's education mission.

Contact Scot McClure and find out how you can get this program into your local schools. Then go grab you local principals and superintendents and make them offer the program. The schools will not be able to offer enough classes for the interest that will be generated.

https://www.gootf.com

This is extremely educational , Jfet . Thank you so much , for bringing the contributions of this great gentle man ... To my attention .

 

[Major Khan]

I have raised both my adopted sons with full access to the outdoors. One is 26 now, the other is 20.

While my oldest son has never hunted, he fishes a lot with me, but my youngest still gets offended if Pops goes on a hunting or fishing trip without him.

My oldest has now expressed an interest in starting to hunt. I am thrilled that a seed is starting to sprout(on his time, not mine mind you).

They both grew up with the venison I had taken through the fall/winter season being grilled for dinner. They both still make special trips to the house when they know I am firing up the grill.

I regularly have cookouts for as many as a dozen young men(ages 20-26), friend of both my sons where I will grill no less than three to four whole backstraps, with all the fixins’, just because they all have come to know what an event this is. Nothing thrills me more than when they all walk through the house and my trophy room, and ask me to tell them the stories of the hunt.

I always invite a table full of these young men to come to our Safari Club chapter banquet, or to meet at thr gun club for a round of clays.

You are absolutely right Major that if we ignore our responsibility to the youth of today, then we will reap what we sow.

Of all your well thought out points and arguments, our youth are where we need to win this battle.

I will admit in a moment of weakness that yes, it is more fun to be with my generation on a hunt, and yes it is easier to grill a steak for two than for a herd, and yes it is nicer to spend money on two trips for myself, than double the cost to take my sons; but, in the end, I have already experienced several lifetimes worth of hunting and fishing. I have been richly blessed beyond measure( I purposely did not say wealthy because it has been my choice to spend what money I have on outdoors activity). So what I do is intentional for those who can and will make a difference for that next generation of hunters and fishermen. Our youth are our key to the preservation of what we too often take for granted.

Thank you Major for once again fanning my flames, and making feel like I need to do more!

As much as I already respected you , Mort Hill ... This merely increased my respect for you , 10 fold ! You certainly are a far more productive member of your community ... Than those modern “ Stay AT Home Dad “ types , who are becoming so trendy ... These days .

 

[Jfet]

These are some of the activities that we did in my Outdoor Adventures Class when I taught in a public school

NASP Archery

We built ground blinds

We hosted our own time at the gun range to provide hands on application to our hunter safety unit. It was attended by students and their parents. Several of my fellow teachers came out to help conduct this activity.

This is a great answer to the Youth Question. It is brilliant because it is at the grassroots level.

 

[PARA45]

Another issue I see is with lead shot. The amount of resistance to copper or steel is very surprising to me. Steel shot has greatly improved but the old arguments continue. Lead is toxic, every box of 25 bullets is 1 pound, whether that be shot in a dove field, clay course, or a duck pond. Cheap lead bullets lose most of their mass passing through an animal, those fragments are still there. It’s really sad to me to know eagles die of lead poisoning after deer season here in Pennsylvania because of eating gut piles with lead fragments just because they were the cheapest bullet on the shelf.

I've heard this argument before, and there is no proof that this is the case with rifle bullets, not talking about lead shot from a shotgun. The communist country of Kalifornia was one of the first ones to come up with this restriction, stating that the use of lead bullets was killing the Kalifornia Condors. However, there is no scientific evidence that this was the case. They used the same argument, that the condors were eating gut piles with led in them and eventually dying from lead poisonings. Yet, here is another restriction they imposed against hunters. Lead bullets (cheap lead bullets as you call them) are a lot less expensive than monolithic ammo, restricting those who are not as fortunate as us to be able to purchase lead free ammo. Not trying to start an argument, but the left have succeeded to change your way of thinking and who knows how many more think like you. Next thing we'll hear is that copper is killing the eagles & condors. Then what?

 

[PARA45]

Maj Kahn, your last post was exactly what I was referring in one of my post. We need to unite, or we will eventually loose. The writing is on the wall, and we need to stop caving into their demands.

If I want to pose with my dead animals, display my pictures in my office/home, and have a house full of mounts, it's my choice. Those who don't agree with my views, have two choices, either don't look at them, or don't visit me. Simple! Why do I need to change my ways because of the few? My best's friend wife is one of those who doesn't like mounts being displayed. My friend has his mounts in one room, and his wife (which was ok with when were dating) doesn't want any animals displayed. She tried to pull that sh*t with me and my wife and I immediately told to mind her own f*cking business, and if that is what she wanted to do at her home it was one thing, but not to come to our home and tried to change our views. And if she didn't like seeing all my mounts, she didn't have to visit us. Last time she made a comment like that.

Like I said earlier, I'm glad I live in GA, because hunting here is a way of life.

United we are a voice, alone we are nothing.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Why , yes ! That is 100 % correct , Saul . I used to be a massive admirer of Mr. Bourdain ( Prior to his unfortunate demise ) and I especially loved his episode in New Orleans . It really did a great deal ... To promote New Orlean’s hunting culture . I recently watched Mr. Ramsay’s episode of hunting feral goats in Australia .

In today’s day and age ( When all television shows must be politically correct ... In order to secure ratings ) ,it is exceptionally relieving to see celebrities who actually are not afraid ... To publicly highlight the countless positive aspects of hunting .

Friend Ponton
In Australia we have a few shows that promote hunting luke paddock to plate and beyond the divide. This is a show about hunting beyond the great dividing range in Australia.
Your friend Bob Nelson

 

[DieJager]

That , Die Jager ... Is exactly why I always visit the Netherlands , once every 2 years . The country is filled with my my kind of people ( And Dutch cheeses are magnificent delicacies ! ) .

In Bangladesh , we have a similar predicament . EVERY BODY ( Fortunately ) supports deer hunting , boar hunting , water fowl hunting , hare hunting , jungle fowl hunting and predator control . Public opinion about hunting Asiatic elephants , royal Bengal tigers , panthers and bears ... Is sadly mixed . How ever , every body supports dispatching man eaters , rogue elephants and problem bears .

EVERY BODY in Bangladesh DESPISES crocodiles ( Due to the massive numbers of our locals ... Whom these brutes devour , on a monthly basis ) . This is why we dispatch these saurian brutes , indiscriminately .

Major,
Thank your for the kind words of my country. Well the next time your are visiting the Netherlands it would be my honor to have you over for dinner and a chat (would love to hear more of your adventures,) as my guest.

 

[375Fox]

I've heard this argument before, and there is no proof that this is the case with rifle bullets, not talking about lead shot from a shotgun. The communist country of Kalifornia was one of the first ones to come up with this restriction, stating that the use of lead bullets was killing the Kalifornia Condors. However, there is no scientific evidence that this was the case. They used the same argument, that the condors were eating gut piles with led in them and eventually dying from lead poisonings. Yet, here is another restriction they imposed against hunters. Lead bullets (cheap lead bullets as you call them) are a lot less expensive than monolithic ammo, restricting those who are not as fortunate as us to be able to purchase lead free ammo. Not trying to start an argument, but the left have succeeded to change your way of thinking and who knows how many more think like you. Next thing we'll hear is that copper is killing the eagles & condors. Then what?

Choosing to ignore and denying proof exists are two very separate things. If you can defend your decisions, all power to you. My point with both my arguments is if we can’t defend what we are doing and make changes when necessary to improve our image we will lose in the long run (as we have slowly been doing). Making a ridiculous statement like copper will kill eagles and condors next does nothing to help us either.

 

[Mort Hill]

As much as I already respected you , Mort Hill ... This merely increased my respect for you , 10 fold ! You certainly are a far more productive member of your community ... Than those modern “ Stay AT Home Dad “ types , who are becoming so trendy ... These days .

Major, the respect is completely mutual. Different ethnicities, different regions of the world, different generations, SAME common passion!

 

[Hogpatrol]

My gang and I work to keep hunting alive another way. I load up my non hunting neighbors with deer venison. It only takes one and I get them butchered in the cuts they like, chip steak, tenderloins, stew meat, burger, hot and sweet sticks, lebanon baloney, dried venison, bacon, hotdogs, etc. I also donate at least two deer a year to the state sponsored sharing the harvest program. My brother buys a dozen antlerless tags and gives deer to the farm owners and workers on those farms he hunts. My brother calls it good PR.