Is this normal behavior by a Safari outfitter?

[Scott CWO]

If I had previously committed to a dollar amount that end up being higher than what an average outfitter charged for the same service, I would not expect to be able to unilaterally decide to reduce it.

Also, I think several people have suggested that the original daily rate for a hunter of $180 was miss quoted. It was not. The administrator stated that that was the correct rate when she quoted it to me, but that the rate has since gone up and that this is the first time they have done this.

I want to reiterate, since this thread is very long, that my concern is not with the fact that they need to increase their prices due to the variables that affect their costs, my issue with the fact that there was no communication regarding this possibility and that when we reserved the extra hunting day, there was no indication that this was a modifiable cost.

Communication is key to managing proper expectations on all sides. My primary concern is with the two hunters in our group who are on very strict budgets. Out of courtesy to them, I’m going to probably have to eat the additional cost of their extra nights so that the financial pressure doesn’t ruin their experience.

If the outfitter would have simply clearly communicated the possibilities at the outset, everyone could have gone into this information and made appropriate decisions.

The primary concern is about communication. The secondary concern is whether the party that failed to communicate should bear the burden of the poor communication. I had written this post to see if this was a common experience, but it seems that it is not.

We get it. I can understand that the change for one day wasn’t communicated promptly or at all until you contacted them again. However, as a lawyer who is paid to worry about all possible contingencies, I think you are overly worried about other things also changing. I haven’t seen complaints against this outfitter concerning surprising changes to contracted hunts already booked.

The net $240 change for one day per person is fairly insignificant compared to the overall costs of international hunting and travel so hopefully your friends will pay it or the outfitter will eat it or compromise with you.

 

[WAB]

Boo Boos happen.
The Admin side stepping responsibility with the " tough banana's quote" of price are subject to change, is actually not a proper answer.

"Sorry about that I screwed up and quoted the wrong number rate. The actually daily rate for extra days is $420 1:1. Because I screwed up we can offer you $350 and I keep my job!
I appreciate your understanding and please let me know how you would like to proceed"

Sorted.

That’s exactly what I was trying to say up above. The mistake is understandable, the way they have addressed it raises all kinds of red flags. The further communication on trophy fees raises even more red flags.

 

[RR 314]

Well you’re certainly starting at the bottom. I’ve paid $1600 to over $2000 per day for hunts in Zambia, Tanzania, Mozambique, Botswana, etc.., so $420 is cheap.

Would you supply lodging, meals, guiding, ranches, etc… for $180 per day? Clearly, you know it is not possible. You’re an educated person.

Scott, you know much more about it than I do, so I am hesitant to even respond. . Hesitance quashed, I can say this— I have noticed some advertised hunts seemingly have a lower daily rate and somewhat higher trophy fee. Daily rates are listed as somewhat of a loss leader for the outfitter as they seemingly have constructed a business model to appeal to some with a lower daily rate and hope to make it up with higher trophy fees.

That being stated, I like my PH/outfitter so much that I don’t even concern myself with daily fees or kill fees. He needs to make a living and is very fair. Last trip over, he even discounted some trophy fees from his advertised price, significantly, (without inquiry), due to management needs of the landowner on one concession. We would’ve killed the same animals and he could’ve pocketed the difference. With increased tips, it was likely a wash, but the bottom line is you need to find somebody you are comfortable hunting with and you can trust.

 

[franzfmdavis]

You’re probably joking but sure, go buy an expensive Gucci hat while not wanting to pay an additional $240 for your extra hunting day. You started this whole thread over $240 on an international hunting trip! $240??

The outfitter has not broken your original contract or raised the daily rate on the contracted package. And yes, the trophy fees might go up a little in 2025 or might not. Even a lawyer can’t always predict exact costs or get everything on your terms but my guess is you will be successful at bullying the outfitter into accepting the $180 for the extra day that YOU requested. You started this thread to gather ammunition for that tactic.

I really think that you have missed the point of every post I have made, and it is hard to understand how.

The reason I started this post has been stated multiple times. My concern is that if this cost can change without my consent, what other cost can change without my consent. $240 per person for one night is insignificant to a trophy fee or some other fee that suddenly increases without notice or consent.

In response to my concerns about this, the outfitter repeatedly told me “all prices are subject to change without prior notice“. Well, where does that end? How am I supposed to trust that things are going to be fair especially when I don’t know the market.

If this is not a valid concern to you, then we simply have very different views of fairness.

And yes, I was joking about the Gucci hat.

I also want to add something since this is not the first time your responses have struck me this way. You are increasingly tilting your comments into personal attacks against me while I have tried to keep this focused on the issue without naming the outfit or trying to assume that they had malicious intent.

I will continue to treat the outfitter honorably as I feel they deserve, and you can continue to attack me personally if you want, but it only reflects poorly on your character. From some of the other comments, it sounds like you’re in the business of guiding or outfitting and it is not a tactic I would take on a public forum if I was in such a business.

 

[RR 314]

I really think that you have missed the point of every post I have made, and it is hard to understand how.

The reason I started this post has been stated multiple times. My concern is that if this cost can change without my consent, what other cost can change without my consent. $240 per person for one night is insignificant to a trophy fee or some other fee that suddenly increases without notice or consent.

If is not valid to you, then we simply have very different views of fairness.

I am with you. Imagine you had a client on an hourly basis that you said it would be $500 an hour subject to change. Your client gets a great result and you say, man, the guy down the street would’ve charged you $1200 per hour for this, and rates have gone up since our contract was executed, my new rate is $1200 an hour.

I’m on my phone and have not read every comment, but another concern is your pH/Outfitter completely control how your experience is. In most circumstances, they have the ability to put you on exceptional animals, versus mediocre ones. They also control your provisions. . You never want to be that guy that shows up in camp where the pH already has concerns about you. Along the same lines, you do not want to show up in camp when you have concerns about the pH and the company. Dang voice text. I’m not correcting the pH.

Your concerns are valid. Honestly, I would expect them to stick with the daily rate to make it consistent with the other days. The exception to that would be if the PH and or Company had to make significant moves to secure that additional day of hunting or it meant they are rushed to pick up their next client.

If everything went as expected, I would anticipate tips would make up for them sticking with the original contracted daily rate (for the initial package). Then again, they are making an accommodation. That accommodation should be appreciated, and made up for in tip.

 

[franzfmdavis]

After all of the comments on this thread about it and further reflection last night, my hope when I contact the PH is to agree to the additional cost for the additional night, but then to request a contract to detail all of the other costs and having a firm commitment to them so that there are no other surprises.

I will probably then just eat the cost for my two friends who are on tight budgets and that should resolve all of the issues.

I will recommend to the owner that better communication would have been appreciated, and perhaps he will be more clear with future clients, especially new hunters to the country.

 

[Scott CWO]

I really think that you have missed the point of every post I have made, and it is hard to understand how.

The reason I started this post has been stated multiple times. My concern is that if this cost can change without my consent, what other cost can change without my consent. $240 per person for one night is insignificant to a trophy fee or some other fee that suddenly increases without notice or consent.

In response to my concerns about this, the outfitter repeatedly told me “all prices are subject to change without prior notice“. Well, where does that end? How am I supposed to trust that things are going to be fair especially when I don’t know the market.

If this is not a valid concern to you, then we simply have very different views of fairness.

And yes, I was joking about the Gucci hat.

I also want to add something since this is not the first time your responses have struck me this way. You are increasingly tilting your comments into personal attacks against me while I have tried to keep this focused on the issue without naming the outfit or trying to assume that they had malicious intent.

I will continue to treat the outfitter honorably as I feel they deserve, and you can continue to attack me personally if you want, but it only reflects poorly on your character. From some of the other comments, it sounds like you’re in the business of guiding or outfitting and it is not a tactic I would take on a public forum if I was in such a business.

Our outfit is honorable and booked years in advance so not too worried about your opinions. We’ve never changed a price on a hunt after contracted but I also wouldn’t appreciate a customer posting online over $240 and your overreaction to other possible changes. Like I said, with all the complaints concerning your outfitter, we haven’t seen complaints concerning bait & switch before.

I’ve been honest in my assessments about costs so nothing more to say there. Good luck sorting it out.

 

[ActionBob]

I wonder if the Outfitter's original quote of $180/day was the price for an observer? And the $420 per day is the hunter price?

On the other hand, in South Africa the day fees tend to be pretty low so I could believe that the $180 was a legitimate per day hunter price.

In any case, welcome to Africa Hunting!

Just go have a great time and take the $240 out of the tips......

 

[Tbitty]

Your #2 could not be correct. $180 for a PH for each hunter plus trackers, cooks, skinners, etc… is too low, even in SA to cover staffing. Then the outfitter is also just supposed to eat the costs of food, fuel, lodging, cleaning, etc…?

I get it that the admin folks quoted too low and that is their fault but let’s not disregard costs.

Re-read my #2. I disagree it "could not be correct."

For a Group of 4+, with the previous assumptions this is 2x1 hunting, a pot of $720 would reasonably cover 1 additional day of staff, food, fuel, etc. ...im not suggesting the Outfitter is going to make money on this day at that rate. And it is in fact likely to be a bit short of his daily costs. Your stance is very clearly dug in on making sure the outfitter isn't losing money- I am 100% confident in my statement that 1 extra day added at the priced they quoted will not be the difference in them making or losing money on this hunt.

It is also likely that with 4 hunters in the field an extra day, at least 1 more trophy is taken and more $ are brought in for the outfitter.

No one here is suggesting the Outfitter should operate at a loss, but everyone agrees they should operate with honesty and integrity. I agree with your stance that we as hunters should also use honesty and integrity in how we approach a situation like this. There is a respectful way to handle it - outfitter should acknowledge they made a mistake and suggest a reasonable solution. Digging in on "prices subject to change any time" and trying to charge 233% of quoted price is not reasonable.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

In April of 2024, I book a trip for April 2025 for myself and 3 other hunters. After we booked our flights, we realized that we would be in country for one additional day that we could use to hunt. I communicated this to the outfitter and they said they could accommodate the extra hunting day at a certain per day per hunter ($180). There was no indication in our correspondence that this daily rate was subject to change without notice.

I recently inquired about a different issue and the outfitter referenced our trip without the extra day. When I reminded them that we had confirmed an extra day, I was told in response that they could accommodate that but the daily had had been increased to over 120% of the previously confirmed price ($420).

Though I provided them with copies of the email correspondence through which we had confirmed and reserved the extra day, they maintained that "all prices are subject to change without prior notice." They referred me to a welcome letter they had sent which did state this at a couple places in the letter.

To me, this seems unfair and unreasonable, but perhaps it is a common expectation? I would appreciate any thoughts.

I did speak with @Ruraldoc about this since he has hunted with the same outfitter, and he also thought it was unreasonable and recommended I speak with the owner (rather than the administrator, with whom I have been communicating). I am planning to do so per his recommendation, but welcome additional input before I do so.

As I'm sure you can all imagine, if "all prices are subject to change without prior notice," I could choose to hunt a certain animal listed at a certain price and then after killing the animal be informed that the price had changed to more than double? That is not palatable to my sense of fairness.

If this matter is not resolved to everyones satis faction, I might suggest that you have them take you to the Afton house. Nice place they will take you wherever you need to go for dinner or shopping.

You will see plenty of hunters and outfitters coming and going. It will give you the opportunity to discuss your current situation.

Just a thought Lon

 

[Tbitty]

Just go have a great time and take the $240 out of the tips......

please don't take this advice. It is not the fault of the PH (unless he is owner also) or staff that caused the error. They should be tipped according to what they earn, not to spite the owner who would not be affected at all.

 

[franzfmdavis]

I just wanna post an update on the disagreements that seem to have risen between @Scott CWO and I. He reached out to me and we just spoke on the phone and he could not have been more understanding or helpful. There were a couple critical pieces of information that I had not disclosed publicly which helped him to understand my position as well, and I certainly understand his as an outfitter!

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

If this matter is not resolved to everyones satis faction, I might suggest that you have them take you to the Afton house. Nice place they will take you wherever you need to go for dinner or shopping.

You will see plenty of hunters and outfitters coming and going. It will give you the opportunity to discuss your current situation.

Just a thought Lon

I am very pleased, that all of this has reached a conclusion.

All i can say is it makes me appreciate our “all inclusive hunts”, no surprises.

Once or twice Liesl forgot to post gun rental and clients assumed that there was no charge, rental fee was listed on invoice, then marked no charge, cheap customer relations.

To me its amazing that a daily fee could be as low as that. We pay our PHs $250.00 to $300.00 per day.

On the “shoot & miss” charge. Croc, hippo you pull the trigger, you just bought the animal.

We just received notice that we will be required to have a new permit if night time hunting is planned. I certainly will not add that to our next leopard hunters hunt.

Lon

 

[Shaw]

Based on most outfitters the $180 is in line with observer rate and $420 is somewhat in line with a day fee for hunting, but outfitter should honor the $180 if that's what he quoted. But in the end $240 is not a show stopper. Don't sweat the small stuff and enjoy your time.

 

[ActionBob]

please don't take this advice. It is not the fault of the PH (unless he is owner also) or staff that caused the error. They should be tipped according to what they earn, not to spite the owner who would not be affected at all.

That's true, I was thinking the owner was the PH.

 

[ActionBob]

To me its amazing that a daily fee could be as low as that. We pay our PHs $250.00 to $300.00 per day.

Big difference between Zimbabwe and South Africa Just managing logistics in Zim has to be a lot more expensive than in RSA.

This last trip we just returned from was the first time I saw a South African Operator hauling jugs of fuel. Every other time they simply pulled into a filling station. On my one Zimbabwe hunt, they hauled in diesel fuel in large drums. And all supplies had to be brought in by having a Land Cruiser make a supply run every few days. In Tanzania it was every two days meaning a full time guy was just back and forth the whole 21 days! In South Africa they just went to the grocery store. We went to KFC one evening when the gas range broke down. And stopped at Steers for burgers one lunch. In Zimbabwe and Tanzania everything was cooked with wood fires.

The rest of the pricing structure is different also. In South Africa the majority of animals are owned by an individual. Not on government quota.

Of course you know all this Lon But trying to lay it out for new folks.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Thank you Bob. I remember when the big question was it safe, it was safe unless you were on the wrong side of politics.

There are so many things new experienced hunters should be made aware of, unfortunately it is so easy to kick off a firestorm, it seems best to stay away.

Lon

 

[WAB]

I just wanna post an update on the disagreements that seem to have risen between @Scott CWO and I. He reached out to me and we just spoke on the phone and he could not have been more understanding or helpful. There were a couple critical pieces of information that I had not disclosed publicly which helped him to understand my position as well, and I certainly understand his as an outfitter!

Scott is a genuinely good guy. I’m glad you guys worked it out.

 

[Mekaniks]

I just wanna post an update on the disagreements that seem to have risen between @Scott CWO and I. He reached out to me and we just spoke on the phone and he could not have been more understanding or helpful. There were a couple critical pieces of information that I had not disclosed publicly which helped him to understand my position as well, and I certainly understand his as an outfitter!

Excellent

 

[Rem280]

I wonder if the Outfitter's original quote of $180/day was the price for an observer? And the $420 per day is the hunter price?

On the other hand, in South Africa the day fees tend to be pretty low so I could believe that the $180 was a legitimate per day hunter price.

In any case, welcome to Africa Hunting!

Just go have a great time and take the $240 out of the tips......

Why Punish the PH?