Looking for 45-70 loads

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Good evening gents , I have recently taken the plunge and bought my first reloader.

I am hoping I can impose apon some of you for load data on the 325 ftx bullets.

I'm looking to replicate the hornady leaver evaluation load in the 2050fps
Range.

Also as I buy all of my supplies locally I'm limited to hodgdon powders.

Thank you all for sharing your had earned wisdom with a novice.

 

[1dirthawker]

skinnerblade,

i used the ABW (alaska bullet works) 350 gr bullets. ran them over 2100 fps. they are bonded. worked great on anything i hit with them, brown bears, moose, caribou. usually ended up nearly 90% wt retention and over .80 caliber

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

If I may be so bold how much and of what were you pushing them with.

 

[sgt_zim]

51 grains of RL7 will get you to just north of 2K. out of my 1895 GBL, accuracy is also very good. Hornady uses a proprietary powder for their LeveRevolution loads. I think RL7 is about as close as you're going to get to replicating that factory load.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

@sgt_zim thank you is rl7 a hodgdons powder?

Did you have to purchase a honnady new dimensions die to seat their bullets?

 

[sgt_zim]

now that's out of the way, there are some excellent choices in lead alloy bullets, moving a good bit slower.

Beartooth Bullets (out of Idaho) makes some VERY wide meplat heavy bullets, in 350, 425, and 525 gr (all have the same nose profile, meplat is about .37 as I recall). I haven't shot the 350s, but I hunt with the two bigger ones, 41.0 gr RL7 gets me to about 1625 fps.

Pretty good group for a "sloppy" lever gun using an aperture and throwing heavy lead. That's 50 yards.

I'm sighted in at 125 yards for this load, gets me to about 150-160 without having to adjust for windage on white tails or boar.

************* late edit**************************
Didn't realize you were in Canada. I'd strongly encourage you to consider using something other than FTX. They work well on white tails and boar, but I don't believe I'd trust them to hold together consistently for moose or bear, even black bear. I imagine it wouldn't be a problem for something in the 250# neighborhood, but I don't believe I'd risk it if there are 400 lbs or heavier you might be chasing. FTX has a very think jacket.

The BTB 425 or 525 would be ideal choices for the kind of environment where you'll be hunting.

 

[sgt_zim]

@sgt_zim thank you is rl7 a hodgdons powder?

Did you have to purchase a honnady new dimensions die to seat their bullets?

Reloder 7 is an Alliant powder.

I use Hornady Custom Grade, with a Lee Factory Crimp Die (Lee FCD) for the crimp. You absolutely HAVE to crimp with a Marlin or Henry.

One more picture to ponder. I hunt with the 2 on the right, target practice with 3rd from the right. Any more, I only reload the FTX (3rd from left) for my brother-in-law.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

My Henry is a single shot but I still intend to chrimp.

I'm not sure if that powder is available in my area. I will certainly be calling around to see though.

 

[sgt_zim]

The good news on reloading for 45-70 is I've found it more effort to find a load that doesn't work than one that does.

I've also had very good success with Ramshot X-Terminator, very similar results as RL7.

For the lead bullets, a lot of velocity is not necessary. About 1400-1600 fps MV is the ideal for 405 gr or heavier bullets. In the American west of the late 19th century, American bison were killed in the millions with 45-70 trap doors, where MV was in the 1200-1300 fps neighborhood, and they were only shooting soft lead or paper-patched lead. There are a number of lead bullet makers with their own alloy formula where Brinnel Hardness is 18-22 without being brittle. Much better bullets than frontiersmen had 130 years ago.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

@sgt_zim I'm not sure that it is possible to import bullets from America into canada @Longwalker mentioned in my earlier thread experiencing problems with importing.
I may be forced to import a mold if I were to go the caste route and caste my own. I have never poured bullets I have poured lead roundball though for use as shotgun slugs.

 

[sgt_zim]

If you're going to pour your own, I'd get a couple Lyman reloading manuals. Lyman #50, and they also have one just for casting lead, I believe. Lyman also makes a number of bullet molds. One thing you will want to do if you decide to start shooting lead is to slug your barrel. Lead bullets should be about .002" bigger than the groove diameter, so you'd probably end up shooting bullets which are .459 or .460.

Importing lead bullets should not be a problem - pretty sure they are not ITAR-controlled. But the industry in the US is so frightened, you'd probably find it a challenge to get anyone to sell them to you. Obviously, if you can get FTX bullets, getting lead bullets shouldn't be an issue.

If you don't want to pour your own, I'd recommend Hornady 350 gr flat nose or Speer 400 gr flat nose. Either of those will do very nicely in the 1600-1800 fps MV neighborhood.

 

[crs]

Try contacting another big bore loader, shooter, and hunter, Bob Mitchell, in Canada.
He does take questions on his blog www.bigbores.ca . Nice guy and very experienced.
He should know how to get bullets and give .45-70 advice as that is one of his favorite rifles.

Oh yes, I agree with Sgt - zim- good source.

 

[Dr Ray]

I used to use wheel weights - right sort of metal combinations.
Used to pour 500 grain Bullets. It was my toy for a while but cannot thinking what powder I used.
Fun gun!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

now that's out of the way, there are some excellent choices in lead alloy bullets, moving a good bit slower.

Beartooth Bullets (out of Idaho) makes some VERY wide meplat heavy bullets, in 350, 425, and 525 gr (all have the same nose profile, meplat is about .37 as I recall). I haven't shot the 350s, but I hunt with the two bigger ones, 41.0 gr RL7 gets me to about 1625 fps.

Pretty good group for a "sloppy" lever gun using an aperture and throwing heavy lead. That's 50 yards.

View attachment 321599

I'm sighted in at 125 yards for this load, gets me to about 150-160 without having to adjust for windage on white tails or boar.

************* late edit**************************
Didn't realize you were in Canada. I'd strongly encourage you to consider using something other than FTX. They work well on white tails and boar, but I don't believe I'd trust them to hold together consistently for moose or bear, even black bear. I imagine it wouldn't be a problem for something in the 250# neighborhood, but I don't believe I'd risk it if there are 400 lbs or heavier you might be chasing. FTX has a very think jacket.

The BTB 425 or 525 would be ideal choices for the kind of environment where you'll be hunting.[/QUOTE

Sgt_ Zimmerman
As you can get hold of hogdon powders in Canada I would get some hogdon leverloution powder and give that a whirl
I will try and attach a screen shot of a 45/70 with a 325 flex tip from a Kudu from someone else on another post. If it is fine for kudu it should be fine for black bear, elk and moose, but that's my opinion.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Try contacting another big bore loader, shooter, and hunter, Bob Mitchell, in Canada.
He does take questions on his blog www.bigbores.ca . Nice guy and very experienced.
He should know how to get bullets and give .45-70 advice as that is one of his favorite rifles.

Oh yes, I agree with Sgt - zim- good source.

Thank you he seems to be a wealth of knowledge.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Stuffed up my post
If you're in Canada you should be able to get hogdon leverloution powder.
I will attach something from someone else on another post.
If they find the 325 flex tip good enough for a Hartman zebra, I can't see why it would not work on black bear, elk and moose

 

[sgt_zim]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelan - no doubt it can and has. I've just heard of too many cases where they've failed is all.

So that's not something I would risk on a high end hunt, or a hunt for something which could eat me.

 

[fourfive8]

If you get into bullet casting.... that is a deep rabbit hole! fair warning

Any reason you want to use a light weight and likely frangible bullet in a 45-70 which made it's history and mark with heavier and slower bullets?? Other than the velocity wow factor?

The excellent record and history of the 45-70 was made with basically two bullets- the 400-405 gr FP and the 500 gr RN. The 500 gr was developed in the late 1800s for long range penetrating volley/plunging fire for battlefield use. These type bullets, in the. 400-500 gr range, pushed to conservative velocities in the 1200-1500 fps range, only very slightly faster than original BP ballistics, are absolutely proven game getters in either a cast or jacketed version.

Additionally, as has been posted, it's hard to not come up with a good load in the 45-70 in that ballistics range. The other thing to consider is you need to find the load level your rifle is designed for... 1- low for Trapdoor max CUP of 18000. 2- mid for Win 1886/Marlin 1895 max CUP of 28000. 3- high for Ruger 1 & 3 max CUP 40000.

My suggestion is to work on reloading techniques that will produce reliable function and repeatable accuracy in your rifle... probably with a 400-405 gr bullet, either gas-checked cast or jacketed, in the low to mid level load ranges. The Lyman Reloading Handbook, about 48th edition or later would be my choice for load data. Look on the Hodgdon site for their powder data and pressure levels for the 45-70.

Here're my favorites for the 45-70. All are loaded to basic Trapdoor levels, 1200-1300 fps. I shoot them in Trapdoors or original Win 1886s (the wider FP) or a modern Shiloh Sharps 1874. I size them to about .461 for the original Trapdoor and about .459 for both the Win 1886 and the Shiloh Sharps 1874. I cast them of slightly soft alloy of about 10-12 BHN. That range seems to work better as they will obturate early to better fill bore and take full spin right out of the throat and have proven to be the most accurate for me. They are gas checked to prevent blow-by and leading. They are lubed with a fairly soft lube. I use all manner of appropriate powders and some loads with Dacron filler.

Left is a custom mold from Mountain Molds -435 gr. Right is a 425 gr.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

The reason I prefer that bullet is all of my several hundred cases are leaver evolution cases which are shorter 2.040 instead of 2.1.
Also as I predominantly use them on white tails and semi feral cattle the fragments don't seem to be an issue. The cattle I've shot have all been head shots so fragmentation isn't a problem and I prefer to shoot deer high in the neck which allows me to cape until I hit bloodshot and simply discard the rest.

Where I to draw one of our allusive moose tags I would be looking for a heavier bullet.

Also my rifle seems to really like them. My rifle is a single shot Henry brass frame. Which according to the manufacturer is safe to marlin guidegun level loads.

I really appreciate you all taking the time to answer. I learn tremendously every time I log onto this website.

 

[sgt_zim]

One last gripe about FTX reloading. Nobody, not even Hornady, sells the cut-down brass needed for those bullets.

Standard brass length for 45-70 is 2.095" to 2.105"

For FTX, that brass has to be trimmed down to 2.040". If you buy factory LeveRevolution cartridges, you won't need to trim those. Last I looked, though, they're about 30 USD per box.

Now, it isn't difficult, nor particularly time-consuming, to trim brass. It's just one more step that's required for FTX 325 bullets.

With respect to @fourfive8, obturation isn't much of an issue for most powders where MV is below about 1700 fps (understand obturation is only a potential issue for lead bullets, not copper-jacketed bullets). The BTB 425 and 525 gr bullets I shoot are gas-checked, the Missouri Bullet Company 405 gr bullets I shoot as practice loads are not gas checked. I shoot all 3 with the same load of powder - 41.0 gr RL7, and I get the same degree of accuracy out of all 3 of them, with MV in the 1600-1625 range for all 3.

I should condense all of this into a word doc and then just copy and paste.

More on reloading for 45-70.

With most modern, shouldered cartridges, especially small bore (under .325 caliber is my definition), appreciable velocity gains can be achieved with small, incremental changes in powder charge. For fat, heavy bullets like 405 gr and heavier in 45-70, you might only see 15-20 fps gain in velocity in 1 grain increments. A 1 grain change in charge for smaller, lighter bullets might get you 50 fps or more improvement in velocity.

For small bore like .308 Win or 6.5x55 SE (I reload for both of those, too), I usually step up in either .2 or .3 gr increments

Bottom line is this: be safe, start with the lightest load recommended for a given bullet/powder combo, and work your way up in 1 grain increments until you get acceptable accuracy or you've reached max charge. I've found it a waste of time and effort to step up in increments any smaller than 1.0 gr for my 45-70. Velocity improvement is almost imperceptible, and you just don't need sub-MOA accuracy out of a 45-70 anyway, even if you could get it.

The one and only powder I've never been able to get good groups with is H322, but H322 is a very commonly used powder for 45-70, and lots of guys have had great success with it.