Mark Sullivan shows us how to handle a Double Rifle

[Bert the Turtle]

If he isn't intentionally provoking charges, he is the unluckiest SOB alive.

His ability to shoot a double accurately, quickly, and to great effect is unquestionable.

While I disagree with considering a dangerous game hunt a battle, that is how he chooses to characterize it, in which case, his tactics suck. Anyone seeking a fair fight in battle is either an idiot or has a death wish.

If in fact he were in battle with the buffalo, he would:

1) Choose to shoot it from as far away as possible where it can't hurt him. Or call in artillery. Or an air strike.

2) Once he has shot it, he would continue to shoot it until it was clearly dead or at least incapacitated. While watching the 3 or 4 minutes of his film that I could tolerate while I was in Africa, I saw him pass up perfectly good shots and basically dick around until the animal finally decided it was preferable to commit suicide by running into Bwana's big double than it was to watch him be a jackass any longer. Can't say I blame the buffalo.

3) Not constantly belittle the armed men around him and/or put their lives in danger with his hero antics. That sort of behavior tends to tends to aggravate the people who he may one day need to rely on to shoot a buffalo off of him. He clearly fancies himself the man in charge of the hunt, the platoon sergeant if you will. He would be more effective in building an effective fighting team if he worked harder to increase the skills, confidence, and abilities of his men and spend less time self-aggrandizing.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

@HeinrichH I don't know anything about .577NE because its not a sporting arm per se, its a PH tool designed to save lives. I do know a bit about .470NE and .500NE having owned the latter.

The .470NE is superior to the .500NE on every level that matters. 500Gr bullet vs 570Gr bullet...same effective expansion. Minimal weight difference of around what, 12%? The .470 at normal load in an 11 pound gun is 69lbs of recoil. The 500NE with the normal load in a 12 pound gun is 75lbs of recoil. So at first blush, you're carrying 10% more weight and feeling 10% more recoil. What does that buy you...lets see:

.470 500gr bullets have a .374BC and a .318SD

.500 570gr bullets have a .350BC and a .313SD

Net result: The penetration at regulation load velocities is superior with the .470 than with the .500.

Then we get to the versatility factor: If you want to shoot a flatter cartridge the .470 is easy to accommodate with monometal solids, softs and solids because of the narrower diameter. Ballistics are superior in lighter weight bullets than the .500NE because the .500NE runs amuck faster as the bullets of the .500 become more like fat cylinders that are less stable as they diminish in weight. This is an effect of the smaller bore diameter holding an advantage.

Again, I don't fault people for their preferences but its just another example of MS making outrageous claims with no supporting evidence that he is "Great" and all those opposed are uninformed, holding "girl's guns". Forgetting/Omitting differences of ethics, morality and style, I still seem to disagree with MS on most of his rifle handling, ballistic insights, manufacturer recommendations and other technlogical opinions. That would be fine if MS didn't assume all those that disagree have not educated themselves. I've spent a tremendous amount of time obsessing over what is proper, best, and superior technologically and while I don't have all the answers, my opinions are formed with data. MS's opinions are formed with emotion and ego as no data is ever provided to support his claims. (experiential "one time at bandcamp" stories do not equate to data)

So, are you claiming that the 470NE is a better stopper than the .500NE?

 

[HeinrichH]

So, are you claiming that the 470NE is a better stopper than the .500NE?

Goose I was waiting for this one... hahaha

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Goose I was waiting for this one... hahaha

I wanted to let it go. Really.

 

[HeinrichH]

I knew you couldn't

 

[HeinrichH]

4 7 0-behave

 

[Ray B]

I'm wondering if Mark Sullivan really thinks he is reincarnated from Robert Wilson and all of his clients are named Francis Macomber?

 

[matt85]

@HeinrichH I don't know anything about .577NE because its not a sporting arm per se, its a PH tool designed to save lives. I do know a bit about .470NE and .500NE having owned the latter.

The .470NE is superior to the .500NE on every level that matters. 500Gr bullet vs 570Gr bullet...same effective expansion. Minimal weight difference of around what, 12%? The .470 at normal load in an 11 pound gun is 69lbs of recoil. The 500NE with the normal load in a 12 pound gun is 75lbs of recoil. So at first blush, you're carrying 10% more weight and feeling 10% more recoil. What does that buy you...lets see:

.470 500gr bullets have a .374BC and a .318SD

.500 570gr bullets have a .350BC and a .313SD

Net result: The penetration at regulation load velocities is superior with the .470 than with the .500.

Then we get to the versatility factor: If you want to shoot a flatter cartridge the .470 is easy to accommodate with monometal solids, softs and solids because of the narrower diameter. Ballistics are superior in lighter weight bullets than the .500NE because the .500NE runs amuck faster as the bullets of the .500 become more like fat cylinders that are less stable as they diminish in weight. This is an effect of the smaller bore diameter holding an advantage.

ah i see your back at the "470 vs 500" thing, only this time your also claiming the 577 NE isn't a sporting arm.

1. the 577 NE wasn't designed for professional hunters to save lives, it was designed for sportsmen and ivory hunters (often the same thing back then) to bring down elephants with greater reliability then the 4 bores and 8 bores used at the time. the 577 NE 3" is a fine choice for any serious dangerous game hunter who isn't afraid of a little recoil.

2. Claiming that one cartridge will out penetrate the other because of .005SD is just silly and in reality you would not likely be able to tell the difference in penetration between the two on game. I'm betting if you fired a 470 into 10 buffalo and a 500 into 10 buffalo in the same place at the same angle, you would have the 500 out penetrate the 470 roughly half the time. I've shown this video before on another thread but ill bring it here as well:

3. as for using lighter bullets, this is not usually an option with double rifles so its not really an argument. your double rifle will be regulated for a single load and for the most part that is all that will work (ex: 500gr at 2150fps). now if your using a single shot rifle like the Ruger's in the video then you will have some wiggle room. however even in a single shot rifle the options for going lighter are EXACTLY THE SAME for the 470 and 500. you can reduce both the .474" and .510" bullets by the same percentage and get the same results, one is not superior to the other in this regard. reduce the bullet weight in both the 470 and the 500 by 25% and you will get roughly the same increase in velocity and the same decrease in SD.

4. the 500 NE will in fact do something the 470 NE cannot do and that is make a bigger hole using the same type of bullet. does this make a big difference... it depends on where your shot lands. if you hit the heart or brain then the hole size probably isn't as important. however if you hit the lungs or arteries above the heart then hole size will determine the distance the animal travels before it expires. but i guarantee when a wounded buffalo is bearing down on you and you've got time to put a single shot into him before hes on top of you that you would prefer a howitzer over your current rifle. when it comes to turning a charge its going to come down to the amount of damage you can inflict in the shortest amount of time. a good example of this would be that my friend @HeinrichH uses soft point bullets to stop charging buffalo.

sorry for the long winded rant! on the topic of Mark Sullivan, i don't have the same hate for him that many others on this forum do. i would not personally hunt with him because i don't like his policy of shooting his clients game. but ive watched some of his videos and will say they can be both entertaining and humorous (his personality whether real or fake is just silly). Mark Sullivan found his niche and did well for himself (hes retired last i checked) and as long as his clients were happy with what they got and how they got it then fine.

-matt

 

[HeinrichH]

ah i see your back at the "470 vs 500" thing, only this time your also claiming the 577 NE isn't a sporting arm.

1. the 577 NE wasn't designed for professional hunters to save lives, it was designed for sportsmen and ivory hunters (often the same thing back then) to bring down elephants with greater reliability then the 4 bores and 8 bores used at the time. the 577 NE 3" is a fine choice for any serious dangerous game hunter who isn't afraid of a little recoil.

2. Claiming that one cartridge will out penetrate the other because of .005SD is just silly and in reality you would not likely be able to tell the difference in penetration between the two on game. I'm betting if you fired a 470 into 10 buffalo and a 500 into 10 buffalo in the same place at the same angle, you would have the 500 out penetrate the 470 roughly half the time. I've shown this video before on another thread but ill bring it here as well:

3. as for using lighter bullets, this is not usually an option with double rifles so its not really an argument. your double rifle will be regulated for a single load and for the most part that is all that will work (ex: 500gr at 2150fps). now if your using a single shot rifle like the Ruger's in the video then you will have some wiggle room. however even in a single shot rifle the options for going lighter are EXACTLY THE SAME for the 470 and 500. you can reduce both the .474" and .510" bullets by the same percentage and get the same results, one is not superior to the other in this regard. reduce the bullet weight in both the 470 and the 500 by 25% and you will get roughly the same increase in velocity and the same decrease in SD.

4. the 500 NE will in fact do something the 470 NE cannot do and that is make a bigger hole using the same type of bullet. does this make a big difference... it depends on where your shot lands. if you hit the heart or brain then the hole size probably isn't as important. however if you hit the lungs or arteries above the heart then hole size will determine the distance the animal travels before it expires. but i guarantee when a wounded buffalo is bearing down on you and you've got time to put a single shot into him before hes on top of you that you would prefer a howitzer over your current rifle. when it comes to turning a charge its going to come down to the amount of damage you can inflict in the shortest amount of time. a good example of this would be that my friend @HeinrichH uses soft point bullets to stop charging buffalo.

sorry for the long winded rant! on the topic of Mark Sullivan, i don't have the same hate for him that many others on this forum do. i would not personally hunt with him because i don't like his policy of shooting his clients game. but ive watched some of his videos and will say they can be both entertaining and humorous (his personality whether real or fake is just silly). Mark Sullivan found his niche and did well for himself (hes retired last i checked) and as long as his clients were happy with what they got and how they got it then fine.

-matt

Nice video! So according to that, the 416 and 500 have the best penetration, and the 577 an 470 the same.... interesting.

I prefer using a 500gr swift aframe for charging buffalo, and other dangerous game, except for elephant i use 500gr dzombo solids. I always have one soft and one solid in my double.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

I always have one soft and one solid in my double.

Not often that you can get both a soft and a solid to regulate high.

 

[HeinrichH]

Hahahaha, jaaaaa Goose

 

[spike.t]

Goose I was waiting for this one... hahaha

me too.......

 

[gizmo]

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Bro that's like the coolest picture ever.

 

[HeinrichH]

Thx Gizmo my finger was itching

 

[gizmo]

Thx Gizmo my finger was itching

It happens

 

[HeinrichH]

It happens

He was so close, if he sneezed i would have lit him up..... hahaha

 

[gizmo]

He was so close, if he sneezed i would have lit him up..... hahaha

Great pic. I wish I would have gotten the opportunity to get a similar pic during my buff hunt. I was that close but the bush was so thick I could barely see much less get a pic. I soooo want to hunt buff again. I was so surprised at how weary buff really are. They're every bit as flighty as a whitetail deer. At least in the very limited experience I have. We hunted buff in two separate herds on two different places and both wouldn't stick around to see what was going to happen next when we got in close. A twig snap or wind shift and it was over. Then back to walking. What a great animal to hunt though. So challenging

 

[gizmo]

oddly though it greatly depended on where we caught them. After my buff hunt when we'd catch them at a water hole they certainly wouldn't move off of it. Quite the opposite actually they would push us and it was obvious their demeanor was toltaly different then.

 

[HeinrichH]

We have that discussion often, and we always joke by saying the can smell the gun oil....hahah

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

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Thx Gizmo my finger was itching

Is Heinrich actually Austin Powers?