PHASA Captive Bred Lion Hunting

[robertq]

I agree with you @Royal27, but I don't think this was my point.

My point was that if lions ever were close to extinction, would you rather have an IUCN listing of 'extinct' or 'extinct in the wild'? It's just logical to suggest that we will never, ever, ever, run out of lions if they are being bred somewhere for some other purpose.

Having said that, I read the article that Robert posted, which addresses the issue of re-introducing lions into lion areas. I see no reason why we would do that today. Like the article suggests, it probably wouldn't work, for a whole bunch of reasons. But if at some point down the road, we had no lions left in the wild at all (sort of like scimitar horned oryx), wouldn't we rather there were real live lions somewhere? My guess is that as long as we hav e captive bred lions, we at least have the opportunity of re-introducing lions into the wild, should that ever become necessary.

I think there have been cases - I'd find them but I'm not as good at this as @BRICKBURN - where captive born lions were introduced into a fenced property, and over time learned to hunt and formed a pride, and reproduced. If I'm wrong, happy to admit it, but if I'm right, surely that proves something?

The bottom line is that I will never worry about the existence of lions on this planet so long as SAPA ()or someone else) is breeding them.

I do worry - a lot - about the existence of wild lion habitat though.

Hank, I think we all agree with what your saying.... what I'm not in favor of is CBL to be released out of a cage for the sole purpose to hunt it in a short period of time.

 

[edward]

i dont want to hunt ANY ANIMAL released out of a cage,pen,encloser,lion or kudu,no animal,period.only fair chase.fair chase dosent apply to lions only,it applys to all animals.thats my point.

 

[IvW]

@Wheels
I chuckled all the way through your post. Then I laugheed my ass off at your next post. I knew you were poking fun at all of us “we know best”americans. Yourself included. It was sad, funny and ironic. Most of us got it and were nor offended at all. I enjoy your wit and humor and I respect your candor and honesty.
@IvW , I just don’t understand why you are offended. He was making fun of US, not belittling you or anyone else.

I guess it is because I am African and not American and read it the way it was posted.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Self deprecating humor's intent is sometimes lost on the internet.

 

[Hank2211]

Totally agree, extinct in the wild is better than extinct everywhere.

The point I was making is that lion breeding does occur elsewhere and that the CBL population itself isn't "the only last hope" for lions as a living organism, somewhere....

To me, if I wanted to be successful in explaining why CBL was important for some reason other than profit margin to an outfitter/breeder and a less expensive way to shoot a lion for the client, I'd try and find a better reason than last hope....

Agree completely with your last paragraph. That may be a reason, but probably wouldn't advance the argument that hunting is OK to go down that road.

 

[daved]

https://www.wildsheepfoundation.org...foundationorg-blob-document-agvhq1nudvdkq1k90

 

[Hank2211]

https://www.wildsheepfoundation.org...foundationorg-blob-document-agvhq1nudvdkq1k90

Another organization - with some pretty tenuous ties to lions - jumping on the bandwagon, and further dividing hunters and giving support and comfort to those who oppose us.

The view from a high horse can be impressive. But so can the fall.

 

[edward]

Maybe CBL should be reintroduced in areas with high concentrations of al shabaab or boko haram.

PS: I want everyone to notice the smiley face emojis. In no way would I want the poor CBL's to have kidnappers, rapists, female genitalia mutilators, murders, etc. stuck between their teeth without the ability to floss.

sonic care brushes would also be nice.

 

[billc]

As I have said many time before. It seems simple enough to me if you don't like it don't do it just stop trying to stop hunters who are ok with it. As they say the proof is in the pudding and nothing changed with the anti crowd after phasa gave in 2 years ago. We have lost more fights by being divided because of ethics and not sticking together. Hell you do not even need to support it just stop talking down on the subject and using anti terms liked canned because they do.

I don't know how so many just don't get we are losing hunting rights and it has nothing to do with raised or wild. It has to do with the killing of animals period. They don't like it and want all hunting stopped

 

[Nyati]

My personal experience with CBL hunts.

I have participated on two hunts in different properties where the hunters were friends of mine. In both cases the event took place in very large properties, of more tan 20.000 hectares /50.000acres.

Both hunts were very similar, the trackers were able to find the lion´s tracks, within about 30 minutes (amazing !), we then dismounted the bakkie and went after them, I would say the whole hunt took maybe one hour.

Well, you do feel some excitement when you face a lion, but, fair chase?

To each his own, but not for me.

 

[wesheltonj]

My personal experience with CBL hunts.

. . . In both cases the event took place in very large properties, of more tan 20.000 hectares /50.000acres . . . Well, you do feel some excitement when you face a lion, but, fair chase?

Intraspecific variation in home range size has been reported for lions and home range size varies markedly between populations across a spectrum of ecosystems (from 20 to 404 km2 Б van Orsdol et al. 1985, Stander 1991, Hanby et al. 1995, Funston and Mills 2006).

50,000 acres = 202 km2.

 

[IvW]

Intraspecific variation in home range size has been reported for lions and home range size varies markedly between populations across a spectrum of ecosystems (from 20 to 404 km2 Б van Orsdol et al. 1985, Stander 1991, Hanby et al. 1995, Funston and Mills 2006).

50,000 acres = 202 km2.

And that is of no relevance if the lion was released half an hour before the trackers miraculously "found" the tracks.

 

[SafariA]

And that is of no relevance if the lion was released half an hour before the trackers miraculously "found" the tracks.

I think there is a misconception here. The min release period agreed to is 30 days not a few hours.

This will be monitored . Therefor only a few accreditted properties are involved.

I say again . This is not a personal pro or against activity. I merely put the facts forward.

The Fair chase policy of SCI has also been brought in and will be applicable for hunters that want to enter such trophies. Here the min release period would be 6 months .

 

[Hank2211]

To each his own, but not for me.

Exactly. No gratuitous comments about ethics, or right and wrong, no put downs of other hunters. Just a statement that others may be fine with something you’d rather not engage in.

 

[IvW]

I think there is a misconception here. The min release period agreed to is 30 days not a few hours.

This will be monitored . Therefor only a few accreditted properties are involved.

I say again . This is not a personal pro or against activity. I merely put the facts forward.

The Fair chase policy of SCI has also been brought in and will be applicable for hunters that want to enter such trophies. Here the min release period would be 6 months .

Great to have that on Paper, I asked before, I will ask again. Who will take the responsibility for monitoring that?

It most certainly will not be PHASA who will go out and check that a specific lion has been released and that that specific lion that was released is the one that is hunted 30 days later or six month's later if so required by a hunter who would like to enter it in SCI? Will it be Nature Conservation, the rancher?

Will the hunter be responsible to prove to SCI that this was followed? and if so how will he/she do that?

What about the large number of properties that are not involved or accredited? Will they not be permitted to hunt lions there? or will they just be supplying lions to the few accredited ranches for hunting purpose?

 

[Jaws]

I find it strange that hunters despise the emotional games played by the anti's on the general population when it comes to the hunting of big & majestic animals. Though I read a lot of comments on this forum, fueled by equal emotions on the same topic causing more division than unity in a situation where we need all the support we can get.

In truth, I think a lot of people do not fully understand the dynamics of modern day hunting in Africa, nor the culture & the least of all the actual lion situation whether wild or captive bred for that matter.

The Lion situation is unique in its own right. It is clear that we all want to be ethical in what we do, unfortunately it is Africa, corruption is rife, affairs cannot be controlled and managed by government institutions like in first world countries, but the individuals whom partake should educate themselves & be the judge on ethics. To leave the door open for "others" to manage the debacle might just swing it in the direction that no hunter would want it or anticipate it to go.

For argument sake.
Fair chase is debatable. Ask the guy in a wheelchair or the very young hunter's father about his first kill.
Free ranging animals...consider that most iconic game are confined to parks, reserves or private land with boundaries, whether by roads, rivers, fences or cities their movement are restricted to a degree, and your "success" can be counted in hours or days.
Wild vs CBL lions...either is as real & dangerous as the other. The conditions of the hunt can only be determined by yourself whether it is acceptable to you or not.
I could point the finger at many hunts in vast open concessions. Spoor is found crossing the road, get off the vehicle, the tracker does all the tracking, the PH point out the quarry & tell the hunter where to aim, the hunter pullers the trigger & the rest is all taken care of all within an hour. Same with asking locals where a certain animal might be found or often seen, the good PH knowing exactly where a certain specimen is found... Not much of a difference to CBL hunting then.

Anyone have the right to decline an opportunity if you do not feel comfortable with the situation, but its best we don't start pointing fingers and put ourselves into different camps.

 

[peras]

Very well said @Jaws

 

[Red Leg]

I find it strange that hunters despise the emotional games played by the anti's on the general population when it comes to the hunting of big & majestic animals. Though I read a lot of comments on this forum, fueled by equal emotions on the same topic causing more division than unity in a situation where we need all the support we can get.

In truth, I think a lot of people do not fully understand the dynamics of modern day hunting in Africa, nor the culture & the least of all the actual lion situation whether wild or captive bred for that matter.

The Lion situation is unique in its own right. It is clear that we all want to be ethical in what we do, unfortunately it is Africa, corruption is rife, affairs cannot be controlled and managed by government institutions like in first world countries, but the individuals whom partake should educate themselves & be the judge on ethics. To leave the door open for "others" to manage the debacle might just swing it in the direction that no hunter would want it or anticipate it to go.

For argument sake.
Fair chase is debatable. Ask the guy in a wheelchair or the very young hunter's father about his first kill.
Free ranging animals...consider that most iconic game are confined to parks, reserves or private land with boundaries, whether by roads, rivers, fences or cities their movement are restricted to a degree, and your "success" can be counted in hours or days.
Wild vs CBL lions...either is as real & dangerous as the other. The conditions of the hunt can only be determined by yourself whether it is acceptable to you or not.
I could point the finger at many hunts in vast open concessions. Spoor is found crossing the road, get off the vehicle, the tracker does all the tracking, the PH point out the quarry & tell the hunter where to aim, the hunter pullers the trigger & the rest is all taken care of all within an hour. Same with asking locals where a certain animal might be found or often seen, the good PH knowing exactly where a certain specimen is found... Not much of a difference to CBL hunting then.

Anyone have the right to decline an opportunity if you do not feel comfortable with the situation, but its best we don't start pointing fingers and put ourselves into different camps.

Jaws I think you have captured the argument precisely, and I could hardly disagree with you more. But that is why ethics are such a personal thing rather than a legal one. And it is always why a particular set of ethics are difficult to adhere to among a group - and the larger the group - the greater the conflict. To me, there is all the difference in the world between engaging a guide to hunt an animal that is part of a self-sustaining population in an area large enough that it's natural range isn't constrained (whether, that be a game ranch, Colorado, or the Zambezi Delta) and shooting an animal that was released into an enclosed area - however large or small - simply to be killed. Everyone wants to bring the antis into this argument - well I am certain the anti's see no difference at all in the two practices - but I do, and I frankly, I think more of us should. Moreover, I am fairly certain most hunters don't believe taking an elk in New Mexico and a released captive bred lion are the same thing. And frankly, I don't think they should. As we daily battle to justify our passion to an ever more skeptical non-hunting majority, I truly do not believe that adopting the anti's argument that all animal killing is the same thing is particularly helpful. But again, that is my personal view.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Jaws I think you have captured the argument precisely, and I could hardly disagree with you more. But that is why ethics are such a personal thing rather than a legal one. And it is always why a particular set of ethics are difficult to adhere to among a group - and the larger the group - the greater the conflict. To me, there is all the difference in the world between engaging a guide to hunt an animal that is part of a self-sustaining population in an area large enough that it's natural range isn't constrained (whether, that be a game ranch, Colorado, or the Zambezi Delta) and shooting an animal that was released into an enclosed area - however large or small - simply to be killed. Everyone wants to bring the antis into this argument - well I am certain the anti's see no difference at all in the two practices - but I do, and I frankly, I think more of us should. Moreover, I am fairly certain most hunters don't believe taking an elk in New Mexico and a released captive bred lion are the same thing. And frankly, I don't think they should. As we daily battle to justify our passion to an ever more skeptical non-hunting majority, I truly do not believe that adopting the anti's argument that all animal killing is the same thing is particularly helpful. But again, that is my personal view.

The things is, you have the choice to make. If you want to go to a small ranch in Utah or Idaho or wherever else they may exist and shoot a giant elk that was reared to be such, you can. Same goes for a whitetail in Texas. You have the choice. It may not be my choice, in fact it wouldn't be. But while I'd never do it, I don't care if someone else does.

Make no mistake about what's going on here. This is an attempt to shut CBL hunting completely down, regardless of whether an operator adheres to strict standards or is one of the dirtbags who puts his client in front of a still stoned cat.

The strategy being employed first was to get those operators out of PHASA. This was in fact done underhandedly. I say fact because the accusation was upheld in court in 2016.

When that strategy failed in court, the second strategy now being employed is to destroy PHASA. And/or ultimately pressure DSC and/or SCI into buying into it. Why? Because in order to be able to get a booth at the shows, an operator must be a member of a professional hunting organization recognized by the big two.

So the first strategy was to get the operators stripped of their PHASA memberships, but that failed. Now it's to get PHASA kicked off the approved DSC/SCI list. Will that fail too? Time will tell.

But if DSC and/or SCI decide to remove PHASA as a recognized hunting association, on the grounds of taking raised animals, then I hope they will not succumb to hypocrisy and allow all those deer ranch / elk ranch/ pheasant farm / animal du jour ranch operators in the U.S. to exhibit at the shows.

If they do, then they're allowing the lion to be seen as an exception. What will be the next exception as dictated by the anti's?

A return to a question I asked before. Is this all being done on the grounds of principle's or ideaology? The more I see and read, the more I doubt there aren't ulterior motives.

 

[Jaws]

Phoenix Phil, you beat me to it...