Scoped Double, Why?

[mfajin2002]

absolutely

 

[DUGABOY1]

Velo Dog, the place I was referring to was Marty (actually his first name is Monty)Calagaras' place. Chris Sells is the sole importer of Heym double rifle in the USA. His films shooting against Monty are on Chriss' Heym website.

The film posted here was posted by Todd Williams and his friend Eric. Todd can shoot his doubles very well, but he is not fast at all, and Erics' rifle kept hanging up, so that film is not a good example of a double shooting against a bolt rifle. Just about any member of DRSS could beat Todd and Eric couldn't beat Monty.

Todd re-loads from a ammo belt, which is very slow for the shots three and four. I load shots three and four from the back of my trigger hand and my trigger hand never leave the pistol grip. As I said I made four shots in four seconds flat, and I was only third place with my score being 36 out of a possible 40 points if all four had hit the two inch ten ring.

Monty can flat work his 416 Rigby bolt rifle but he cant beat Chris shooting a double rifle for four shots. AND, Monty can beat just about anyone I know shooting a bolt rifle.

We were just talking about two different shooting films!

Hi Dugaboy,

I do not know who "Marty" or "Chris are.
Maybe "Marty" is the guy shooting the double-rifle plus, narrating in the video and maybe "Chris" is the guy shooting the bolt rifle that I thought was referred to as "Eric"? (not horribly important at this stage I recon).
Well anyway, my interpretation of Wheels' statement that "the bolt guy could be faster" was as if to say "the bolt guy could have used better technique" or "the bolt guy could have done better", or "the bolt guy could have tried harder" and etc.
I definitely was not implying that if we put a stop watch on those two shooters in the video that, it might have shown the bolt guy had actually shot faster than the double guy because, that obviously was not so, (no stop watch needed to verify the obvious).
And, generally speaking, I agree with you that at what amounts to typical the buffalo charge distances (from what I have read and only seen on video), a well practiced double shooter not always but usually always "beats" an equally practiced bolt shooter in speed/accuracy type competitions.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
It's probably my fault that you thought I was saying the bolt guy had possibly out-shot the double guy in the video.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[DUGABOY1]

In regard to mounting a scope on a double rifle, some thought needs to be taken before you choose the scope and mount.
First off the scope you choose needs to be as light as you can get in a quality scope that will handle the recoil of a large bore double. This includes the weight of the mounting system. Secondly the scope need to be mounted as low as you can.

The reason the scope needs to be light, especially if the bases were not done by the maker. Any thing that drastically changes the weight of the rifle at it's balance point will usually effect regulation. The higher the scope is mounted the more that will effect regulation as well.

Because a double rifles' recoil causes the barrels to rise and move away from the other barrel at an angle upward during barrel time, the height and weight of the scope changes and retards this critical movement of the barrels of a double to cause proper regulation.

Even if the scope is right in all respects to height and weight the rifle my need re-regulating, or at least have a different load worked up to maintain regulation.

The mounting of a scope on a single barreled rifle can be as heavy as one wants, and mounted as high as needed to give proper eye level for the shooter. This is because a single barreled rifle only recouls back and up on firing, and that movement can be adjusted in the scope its self. This is not the case with a double rifle which depends on the back, up and flip to the side away from the other barrel under recoil to regulate. If the double was not set up for the scope when the rifle was regulated, changing that marriage of changes in a double rifle will usually be disastrous to the regulation in many cases.
.......................................Mac

 

[sierraone]

In regard to mounting a scope on a double rifle, some thought needs to be taken before you choose the scope and mount.
First off the scope you choose needs to be as light as you can get in a quality scope that will handle the recoil of a large bore double. This includes the weight of the mounting system. Secondly the scope need to be mounted as low as you can.

The reason the scope needs to be light, especially if the bases were not done by the maker. Any thing that drastically changes the weight of the rifle at it's balance point will usually effect regulation. The higher the scope is mounted the more that will effect regulation as well.

Because a double rifles' recoil causes the barrels to rise and move away from the other barrel at an angle upward during barrel time, the height and weight of the scope changes and retards this critical movement of the barrels of a double to cause proper regulation.

Even if the scope is right in all respects to height and weight the rifle my need re-regulating, or at least have a different load worked up to maintain regulation.

The mounting of a scope on a single barreled rifle can be as heavy as one wants, and mounted as high as needed to give proper eye level for the shooter. This is because a single barreled rifle only recouls back and up on firing, and that movement can be adjusted in the scope its self. This is not the case with a double rifle which depends on the back, up and flip to the side away from the other barrel under recoil to regulate. If the double was not set up for the scope when the rifle was regulated, changing that marriage of changes in a double rifle will usually be disastrous to the regulation in many cases.
.......................................Mac

Answers like the one above are why I am a member of this forum!!!

 

[DUGABOY1]

Gentlemen there are some very good reasons to mount a scope on a double rifle, as long as it is mounted properly and the scope is the proper one for that use!

In my case I have developed macular degeneration in my right eye, and I am right handed so my right eye is my dominate eye. With that ailment what I need is a scope that has a true one power on the bottom of the variable range like the Trigicon 1-4 . That one power is the case for anyone on the bottom end, but in my case I also need a lighted reticle in the center of the crosshair or post and crosshair. This allows me to shoot with both eyes open so the natural binocular effect will allow me to still shoot very quickly, and be able to see the point of aim transposed on the target. I can still see the illuminated point of aim and with both eyes open shooting is the same as with open sights even with good eyes.

For those with no "one eye" problem the mounting of a scope is still justified but is very expensive, and should be done by a competent double rifle smith. In my case I have to mount scopes on seven double rifles. However a scope mounted on a double rifle or a bolt rifle that will be used on dangerous game should be mounted in quality quick detach mounts that return to zero EVERY time they are removed and replaced and fitted with proper iron sights as well.

I have several bolt rifles with scopes mounted in that type of mounts so the scope can be removed for in close use of the iron sights. Now those scopes will have to be changed for me as well, because of my eye condition with a true one power bottom end, and illuminated reticle.
.......................................................

 

[Albert GRANT]

I have never wanted to hunt an elephant- just a personal choice, but I have to admit that Heym video was pretty awesome! When you have to pull your foot out from under an elephants head.....

 

[DUGABOY1]

Rookhawk, willing to put friendly wager, I will put 4 shots out of magazine fed rifle faster than a double puts 4, but then on the other hand if you usually need more than 2 shots...you in deep shit....

................... It is evident you never ran into a person who knows how to use a double rifle!

 

[CAustin]

Everyone I have ever hunted with that carried a double did so without a scope,

 

[edward]

great to have good eyes charlie,youll get old someday,boo hoo.

 

[CAustin]

Already started that process Edward wearing glasses for about five years now.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Everyone I have ever hunted with that carried a double did so without a scope,

Who cares what "everyone" does. Big bore DR's are for DG, emphasis on dangerous. Do what you're most comfortable and proficient with.

 

[CAustin]

Well no offense intended there Phil. Just making an observation!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Well no offense intended there Phil. Just making an observation!

No offense taken. Just don't want anyone to make decisions on what to do based on my or others subjective thoughts. The engineer in me is sometimes over the top in data driven decisions.

 

[CAustin]

The thread is titled Scoped Double Why?
My limited observations indicate no scopes in use. I admit not a lot of data here on my end but I wouldn't think any is really needed. I wouldn't use one on dangerous game because acquiring the target quickly might be a problem for me!

As with all these threads the guy starting it will do what he feels is best in the end. Your point to do what he feels most comfortable with is well taken.

 

[hlf]

I'm not an owner (Yet) of a double rifle, but I see lots of pictures of doubles with scopes and I'm wondering why?

My idea of a double is a fairly close range gun that can be quick and very deadly in an instant when needed. Putting a scope in the way of the of or replacing the open sights seems wrong. I understand no one should be making snap shots at anything, but that's where the double excels.

If one has the time to shoulder and take careful aim through an optic other than maybe a red dot, shouldn't they be using a bolt action off sticks?

I'm sure there are good reasons why and look forward to hearing them.

Jim

I think that you're absolutely right.

 

[DUGABOY1]

Gentlemen, it is one thing to be fast with a rifle regardless of type, but speed is wasted if those shots don't hit the right spot!

To get a result that means something one needs to shoot fast and keep his groups in a proper size. In a charge if your shots are not hitting the right places they simply do not count as stoppers. That my friends is when the SHTF. Fast without accuracy is a dangerous thing when trying to stop the big bite-backs!
The only place speed counts is at the distance where a determined charge starts or closer. In the area where a big bore double or bolt rifle needs four fast shots ON TARGET is at around 25 yards where an average buffalo or elephant usually starts. However if those four shots are not dead on target nothing is gained by the speed of fire.

At our DRSS shoots we set an 8 inch target at 25 yards, this target has a 2 inch 10 ring. The highest score possible is 40 points if all four shots hit the 2 inch ten ring, and any shot that misses the 8 inch target is not counted. Each shooter is individually timed by a timer using a digital stop watch. and the line up on the shooting is 10 shooters shooting simultaneously. The timing starts for each shooter when his first shot is fired and stops when shot four is fired. We usually have two 10 shooter line ups or a total of 20 shooters to be scored for the positions in the competition.
The bolt rifles are loaded with one in the chamber and three down in the magazine. The doubles are loaded with a round in each barrel, requiring a reload for the second two rounds. When the whistle is blown the shooter shoulder the rifle and begin the timed shooting.

In the last one I shot in, my score was 36 points out of a possible 40 points if all had hit the 2 inch ten ring and I fired all four in 4 seconds flat, and I only took third place out of 20 shooters, and I forgot the rifle I was shooting had an AUTO SAFETY, that had not been disengaged and I tried to fire shot three with the safety in the "ON" position. If I had disengaged that safetys' AUTO feature I could likely have shaved another second off that time. No bolt rifles beat any double for four shots, and some did not hit the targets with all four shots so the misses were not counted, and their final scores were miserable to say the least. Actually three guys were shooting iron sighted lever actioned 30-30s that did better than most bolt guys, especially for accuracy.

If you think about it, even though a double must be re-loaded after shot #2 a bolt rifle must be re-loaded for every shot after the first one. Where the double must only need a change of trigger after shot #1, a reload after shot #2, and only a change of trigger after shot three! 4 seconds flat with a score of 36 out of a possible 40 points out of a double rifle ain't bad, and that only took third place out of twenty shooters. No bolt rifle got above fifth place with a full four shots being counted for score.

 

[siml]

@DUGABOY1 , I am not going to disagree with you about your competition shoot. But I know I will get off 3 shots with a bolt before a double, if I need the forth I am in deep sh5t!

For interest, what is the timing for the 4 shots with the double?

 

[Red Leg]

The thread is titled Scoped Double Why?
My limited observations indicate no scopes in use. I admit not a lot of data here on my end but I wouldn't think any is really needed. I wouldn't use one on dangerous game because acquiring the target quickly might be a problem for me!

As with all these threads the guy starting it will do what he feels is best in the end. Your point to do what he feels most comfortable with is well taken.

Read the string. I use one very successfully on an S2 Blaser. Works on Buff at forty yards and PG out beyond 200. What's not to like. And because it uses a Blaser base, it can be dismounted in seconds for a follow-up in the thick stuff.

My German double rifle drilling and an Austrian double are both equipped with claw-mounted scopes - both are pre-war and both were equipped with claw bases at the time they were built. A lot of folks having been scoping doubles for a lot of decades. Most of them spoke German. Only the English seemed to have an aversion to scoping a double.

 

[CAustin]

Interesting way to look at it Red !eg! If you use a scope and are happy with doing so...then I'm happy for you!

 

[DUGABOY1]

Read the string. I use one very successfully on an S2 Blaser. Works on Buff at forty yards and PG out beyond 200. What's not to like. And because it uses a Blaser base, it can be dismounted in seconds for a follow-up in the thick stuff.

My German double rifle drilling and an Austrian double are both equipped with claw-mounted scopes - both are pre-war and both were equipped with claw bases at the time they were built. A lot of folks having been scoping doubles for a lot of decades. Most of them spoke German. Only the English seemed to have an aversion to scoping a double.

RedLeg is correct in all except the English being against mounting a scope on a double rifle. The English have been mounting scopes on double rifles as long as the glass has been available. I find the majority of folks who oppose a scope on a double are Americans, and in most cases they are not owners of double rifles and are of the mind set that a double rifle is only effective at very close range. None of that is true and most old time users of double rifle can effectively take game at some amazing distances. Most of those folks wouldn't think of having a bolt rifle that only had iron sights, but would certainly have a bolt rifle with a scope only.
I can't see why a person would be opposed to having both sights on a double rifle and not on a bolt or single shot rifle to get the best that firearm had to offer!
.........................................Puzzling