Speed too slow, help!

[Pheroze]

I am wondering if I am doing something wrong. I would appreciate some help with this problem please.

I am loading 270 Win using a Rem 700. I have 130 gr ttsx over H4350 with CCI BR2 primers and Hornady brass. The max load of 55gr averages a four shot group at 2913 fps. But the Barnes manual says it should be around 3133. I check every load with the scale. I use the Lee factory crimp and I have seated the bullets .08 off the lands to get them moving. WTF. Is there something I am doing wrong to have it so slow? Or, is there some way to pick up the pace with the load?

I am starting to suspect my Chrono because my 06 loads with max powder also comes up quite a bit slower than published.

Maybe I just don't pull the trigger hard enough

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Mekaniks]

How long is your barrel and how long is the Barnes test barrel? Do you have a muzzle break installed?

 

[IdaRam]

Hi Pheroze,
As Mekaniks has already stated, barrel length is a for sure factor. Not only that even barrels of the same length have individual performance characteritcs. Some barrels are faster than others, just the same as some barrels are more accurate than others. Additionally, every lot batch of powder is different. Or at least has the potential to be different.
So, just because a loading manual lists a velocity, it doesn't mean that will be achievable in any given firearm.
And yes, your chrono can be incorrect as well. Probably not the most likely though.
Hope this helps

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

The only thing that you are doing wrong is believing the Barnes manual! There are several factors that go into a determining a loads velocity........barrel length, barrel wear, temperature, brass age, etc. etc, etc. If you are getting ONLY 220 fps slower, I would say you are doing GREAT!!! I also think that the manual manufacturers tend to "guild the lily" quite a bit when it comes to published data.
I've been chronographing loads for several years now, and I don't think I have EVER gotten the same velocity that a manual published, even when all the data (barrel length, etc) were the same of similar. Same thing with handgun loads, and shotgun loads fall way, WAY below what the manual says they should be, but they do kill birds!
Several years ago I read an article by a gun writer who tested a load several years later, and found a BIG difference in velocity......almost 400 fps difference! The only difference was the fact that the barrel had several hundred rounds put down it between each testing........
Here are my thoughts: if the load is accurate, then you have a good load there.....my .30-06 loads fall significantly below what the manual says it should be, but they still took game with one shot. I would continue to test my reloads, but instead of looking at "speed", and speed alone, I would consider other factors, such as spread......I have a load that varies only 11 fps between 5 shots!! Now THAT is consistancy!!!!
Continue to test your reloads, but remember: it's a "manual", not a "gospel"!

 

[Mekaniks]

The only thing that you are doing wrong is believing the Barnes manual! There are several factors that go into a determining a loads velocity........barrel length, barrel wear, temperature, brass age, etc. etc, etc. If you are getting ONLY 220 fps slower, I would say you are doing GREAT!!! I also think that the manual manufacturers tend to "guild the lily" quite a bit when it comes to published data.
I've been chronographing loads for several years now, and I don't think I have EVER gotten the same velocity that a manual published, even when all the data (barrel length, etc) were the same of similar. Same thing with handgun loads, and shotgun loads fall way, WAY below what the manual says they should be, but they do kill birds!
Several years ago I read an article by a gun writer who tested a load several years later, and found a BIG difference in velocity......almost 400 fps difference! The only difference was the fact that the barrel had several hundred rounds put down it between each testing........
Here are my thoughts: if the load is accurate, then you have a good load there.....my .30-06 loads fall significantly below what the manual says it should be, but they still took game with one shot. I would continue to test my reloads, but instead of looking at "speed", and speed alone, I would consider other factors, such as spread......I have a load that varies only 11 fps between 5 shots!! Now THAT is consistancy!!!!
Continue to test your reloads, but remember: it's a "manual", not a "gospel"!

What he said. Lots of variables...but you are less than 10% of published data. Is the load accurate in your gun? And if it makes you feel better I only have one gun that I have ever hand loaded that came within 50fps of the published data, and I have never been able to exceed it using the same components. For what it's worth....

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

The previous posts have it pretty well covered. I guess maybe I'm lucky as I normally find my loads to be in the ballpark of the manuals. I have found the Nosler manual listing their loads on average about 100fps faster than what I get, doesn't matter what caliber. But Swift and the Barnes manuals seem pretty accurate against my results.

So personally @Pheroze being 200fps away from the manual would have me wondering too. I don't know for certain, but I would guess that the chrono's are based on a pretty simple circuit using a high speed digital clock that a counter circuit is driven by. When a bullets passes over the back sensor the counter is started and then stopped when it passes over the front sensor. Multiply the count by the period of the digital clock and you now have the time it took for the bullet to pass over a known distance and you can then calculate the velocity.

So how accurate can these chrono's be? Your loads are about 5-7% off from expected. If the digital clock is a bit off or the "stop" sensor is slow, that could add error in addition to the factors mentioned above. There may also be some drift in accuracy over time.

A couple of questions:

1. Do you have other loads that you've chrono'd using the same chrono? If so, how did those results compare to the manuals. If they were closer to expected, I'd be inclined to say the chrono is working fine. If they're also off, then maybe this is part of the problem.

2. Do you have any friends with chrono's that you could use and see how the results compare?

 

[greyfox]

Don't n\believe everything you read- either in the loading manuals (velocity) or the internet (No, Sh*, There I was....) LOL
My velocities are always short but I shoot short barrels.
The load development is under close to lab conditions, not in a garage and field.
Use the velocity the chrono says and have a great time!! 200 fps at 300 yds is nothing!

 

[IdaRam]

Phil I believe you are exactly correct about how most chrono's work.
In the very limited comparison testing I have done I've been quite surprised how consistent they seem to be. Even the very inexpensive models. I've compared mine to another one exactly like it as well a new Oehler (can't remember the model) and an old Oehler model 33. Between the 4 different chrono's they were all within about 25 fps at 2500 fps. So within 1%.
Powder manufacturers will tell you lot batches purchased in cans (up to 8 pound) may have up to something like 8% variation. Canister powder up to 13% or some such thing. Don't hold me to those numbers, going from distant memory.

 

[Pheroze]

Thanks for the advice, really appreciate it.

I was quite frustrated by not breaking 3000 fps. To answer some questions: 22" barrel with no muzzle break. I used this chrono on my '06 and 180gr interlocks and that load i recall was about 250 fps slower than the manual.

Interestingly, this load and one that chuggged along at about 2700 fps are the most accurate in the 270 Win. Both were just over 1 MOA with a red dot sight off of a beanbag rest. So, I suspect my shooting plays into that group too.

I think I will load up these loads and use the lead sled to get a better idea of accuracy.

Again, I appreciate the advice guys. Stupid manuals give me an inferiority complex lol.

 

[IdaRam]

Again, I appreciate the advice guys. Stupid manuals give me an inferiority complex lol.

You are not alone, buddy!

 

[lcq]

Something I found recently Barnes like to be seated short ie a long way from the lands. As others have stated manuals generally have over cooked the velocities but you can remove about 60fps for your 22" barrel. I have a 223 that according to Hodgdon worked best with Varget I just couldn't get the speed I wanted. Switched to H4895 and gained 150fps. You may want to try H4831.

I love the Factory Crimp but Barnes only recommends using it on very short bullets.

Best of luck and as we used to say in archery, a slow hit is better than a fast miss

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

. Stupid manuals give me an inferiority complex lol.

+1 and "AMEN" to that!!! Used to get upset that I wasn't getting what the manuals said, esp. with nontoxic shotgun ammo, until I sat down and realized that I was killing game quite well with my handloads. There is a good read in some of the older Speer manuals (don't know if it's in the newer ones or not) entitled "Why ballisticians get grey", and pretty much sums up the flavor of this topic.

 

[Pheroze]

Something I found recently Barnes like to be seated short ie a long way from the lands. As others have stated manuals generally have over cooked the velocities but you can remove about 60fps for your 22" barrel. I have a 223 that according to Hodgdon worked best with Varget I just couldn't get the speed I wanted. Switched to H4895 and gained 150fps. You may want to try H4831.

I love the Factory Crimp but Barnes only recommends using it on very short bullets.

Best of luck and as we used to say in archery, a slow hit is better than a fast miss

H4350 was listed as the most accurate. I also have Varget but I am saving that for my GS Customs (when they arrive).

I use the crimp because Lee suggests its a way of ensuring good burn in all cartridges. I thought it may boost the fps a little. I note that GS Custom also speaks against it. I wonder if that is because most dies do a roll crimp but the Lee die just grips the bullet sides better?

 

[lcq]

H4350 was listed as the most accurate. I also have Varget but I am saving that for my GS Customs (when they arrive).

I use the crimp because Lee suggests its a way of ensuring good burn in all cartridges. I thought it may boost the fps a little. I note that GS Custom also speaks against it. I wonder if that is because most dies do a roll crimp but the Lee die just grips the bullet sides better?

Hey Pheroz this from the Barnes manual for 300wsm "*The 130-grain TSX has a very short shank. We recommend lightly crimping the case mouth with a factory crimp-style die to increase neck tension" Other than that crimp is not recommended. GS Custom are really special in that they use drive bands so in effect have much lower bearing surface read friction. GS also recommend a magnum primer for everything and the use of faster powders. Just because one powder worked in their barrel doesn't necessarily mean it will perform in yours, a lesson I have learned the hard way.

Best of luck, reloading is as much art as science

 

[Mekaniks]

Maybe try some reloader 19? The Barnes manual has the R19 velocity well over 3000, and who knows maybe your gun will like it. Reloader 19 is an very good large case (30-06 size) powder IMO. That said, IMR 4831 has been the tried and true old school powder for the 270 for decades. I know the Barnes manual doesn't show a 4831 load for their 130g bullets but with some internet research I bet you could find some reliable trustworthy 4831 loads.

 

[Pheroze]

I think Reloader 19 was recommended for my '06 too. I think I may just pick some up if it becomes available locally.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I am wondering if I am doing something wrong. I would appreciate some help with this problem please.

I am loading 270 Win using a Rem 700. I have 130 gr ttsx over H4350 with CCI BR2 primers and Hornady brass. The max load of 55gr averages a four shot group at 2913 fps. But the Barnes manual says it should be around 3133. I check every load with the scale. I use the Lee factory crimp and I have seated the bullets .08 off the lands to get them moving. WTF. Is there something I am doing wrong to have it so slow? Or, is there some way to pick up the pace with the load?

I am starting to suspect my Chrono because my 06 loads with max powder also comes up quite a bit slower than published.

Maybe I just don't pull the trigger hard enough

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

@Pheroze
Why are you crimping the TTSX with a Lee fps. There is no need to.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

h 4831 has always been THE powder for 130 gn and up in the 270.
find your own max using the standard method of establishing such with pressure signs, and it should deliver reasonable velocity.
the 270 is in its own right a magnum, and as such thrives on slower burning powders.
4350 is better with 110 gn bullets in this cartridge,
i could get over 3000 in my rem 700 22" barrel and a bit more in a brno with a 24" with 4831.
bruce.

 

[Dr Ray]

Bruce iris that IMR 4831 or the Australian equivalent??

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

h 4831 has always been THE powder for 130 gn and up in the 270.
find your own max using the standard method of establishing such with pressure signs, and it should deliver reasonable velocity.
the 270 is in its own right a magnum, and as such thrives on slower burning powders.
4350 is better with 110 gn bullets in this cartridge,
i could get over 3000 in my rem 700 22" barrel and a bit more in a brno with a 24" with 4831.
bruce.

@bruce moulds
I was getting 3,100 with 130 grain ACPs and 4831 with a 22inch Stevens 200.
Bob