Trying to figure out what is going on with .280 Remington

[postoak]

I bought some Norma cases and FL resized them with Forster sizing dies, mainly to make the mouths circular. Then I fired the loaded rounds. Today, I started resizing with the die adjusted 1/4 turn past touching the shellholder. Holy cow, I've never had to use so much force to get the case into and out of the die. (I used graphite inside the neck, and Imperial Sizing Wax on the outside of the case. The shoulders were not set back at all but there was a bright ring on the shoulder where it meets the neck. (These were not super high pressure loads, BTW). The case length increased to .020 - .025 inches over maximum. Finally, on one especially difficult case the neck collapsed about 2/3rds of the way down. I think I'll probably have to toss these cases. Anyway, I removed the decapper/expander ball and sized a case and there was still a lot of pressure required, although not as much, and the ring at the front of the shoulder remained. The ID of the necks were .275. The expander ball measures .284 inch. The case wall thickness is .015", which seems about right.

I feel like we have discussed a similar problem on a different caliber but can't remember how that was resolved. My first thought was to buy a Lee collet style neck sizing die but this is a special order and Lee is so busy they have suspended special order work, so that is out.

Any thoughts? Should I get Forster involved?

 

[CBH Australia]

Others should have more insite than me but have you cleaned the dies to ensure there is no grease or wax to stop them rusting, is there a thick or sticky lining?
I read somewhere once to wash new dies out. I have done it when I buy new dies.
Do you have any way of checking the dies or cases are in spec?

 

[Hogpatrol]

What do you mean the ID of the neck is .275? On new brass or after sizing?

 

[Pheroze]

Today, I started resizing with the die adjusted 1/4 turn past touching the shellholder.

Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but this sounds like way too much setback - typically I unscrew the die back to set the shoulders back about 0.002 - 0.003 from a fired case. Touching the shell holder is usually too much bump for my liking and 1/4 turn past that would really push the shoulder back, no?

 

[bruce moulds]

i would contact forster about the neck i.d..
275 sounds way too small.
that said, sizing 30/06 brass to 25/06 or 6.5/06 is not hard to do.
what chris said will cost nothing to do.
is there much reduction in shoulder diameter or diameter in front of the extraction groove?
how do you know you are not pushing the shoulder back?
bruce.

 

[postoak]

I'll be contacting Forster later this morning. I'll probably wind up buying their bushing-bump die. I don't like the idea of those as much as the Lee Collet die, OTOH, it also sizes the body at the same time.

1) CBH - the dies are not new. I used them on the 100 new cases I had purchased to true up the mouths. (I wish I could remember if there was excess force required when I did that, but at least I know it wasn't enough to catch my attention.)

1) Pheroze, that 1/4 turn past the stop is getting me NO set back.

2) I agree Bruce, .275 sounds way too small to me, or at least way more than I like. I think those old posts I vaguely recall involved Hornady dies that oversized the neck.

One possibility that occurred to me is that I have an oversized chamber, but I just measured and the dies are reducing the bulge in front of the web just .003" and reducing the shoulder diameter .007". Neither of these seem excessive to me.

 

[postoak]

Huh, I just found an in-stock .280 Remington Lee Collet die at MidwayUSA so I ordered it and a Redding body die and will just side-step the problem with the Forster die.

 

[shootist~]

One possibility that occurred to me is that I have an oversized chamber, but I just measured and the dies are reducing the bulge in front of the web just .003" and reducing the shoulder diameter .007". Neither of these seem excessive to me.

That .007" difference in shoulder diameter between fired and resized seems somewhat excessive to me. I see .003" with Norma Brass in 6.5 CM and .004" with Lapua 30-06. FL Sizer Dies are Redding Bushing dies in both cases.

Just above the web I see .001" with the same 6.5 CM and .002" with the 30-06. Unfired factory brass will usually be just slightly undersized (~.0005") compared to my FL sized cases. That could be another source for comparative data to see if the chamber or the sizer might be the culprit.

FWIW, If I use Imperial sizing wax (instead of a heavy dose of my normal Hornady One Shot), I also use it on Q-Tips to do the inside of the case neck. But that's just me.

 

[postoak]

Be careful using Imperial on the inside of cases, especially if you wait a year or more before firing. It will turn into a glue and raise pressures. I've had bullets so tight that my RCBS bullet pullet couldn't pull them. I had to seat the bullets deeper and there was a loud crack when I did so. That's why I switched to graphite.

 

[postoak]

Thanks for that info. I'm going to contact Forster.

 

[bruce moulds]

0.007" at the shoulder sounds excessive.
eother the chamber is too big, or the dies too small.
could they be in reality 7x64 dies?
bruce.

 

[postoak]

The 7x64 is rare in the states, so I doubt it, but also, the shoulder diameter of the .280 Remington is listed as .441" and the shoulder diameter of the sized case is .438".

 

[postoak]

Well, Forster got back to me. They said they have an unusual positioning of the expander ball, and usually in cases where the necks crumple it is due to having the ball too high. They have a video on how to adjust it. So, mine was .080" higher than they want it. I adjusted it down and that removed the issue of excessive pressure. I guess that pressure was due to the expander ball and the interior of the die trapping the case walls. Now, however the decapping pin is projecting out about .385" whereas I usually set it out much less than that, but I guess that is okay as the decapping pin doesn't feel like it is hitting the bottom of the inside of the case.

That said, I don't like the die sizing the case neck down to .275". They do this so that case neck walls of varying thicknesses will work with the die.

I'm still going to switch over to the Redding and Lee dies.

Thanks for everybody's suggestions.

 

[bruce moulds]

very interesting.
bruce.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Hornady One Shot works better if after spraying, let it sit for a minute. The propellant will wick off and just leave the lube.

 

[postoak]

I wonder if the people who had problems with Hornady dies crumpling necks had the same issue. I'm too lazy to research to see if Hornady expander balls have to be positioned in this same way.

 

[Hogpatrol]

I wonder if the people who had problems with Hornady dies crumpling necks had the same issue. I'm too lazy to research to see if Hornady expander balls have to be positioned in this same way.

Try doing away with the expander ball. All it does is work harden the neck. If there's a problem with necks being out of round, a mandrel die such as the one 21st Century makes is a good alternative.

 

[bruce moulds]

trouble with that die, no expander ball would give 0.009" neck tension - too much.
0.003" is more like it.
the bullet would do the expanding, and as such would be susceptable to increased runout.
the other thing the expander does is make the inside diameter of the necks the same, offering consistent release on firing.
you can have no expander and consistent release with no expander if you neck turn and use a custom chamber to suit, but that is not suited to hunting rifles.
bruce.

 

[postoak]

Trouble with what die, Bruce?

HogPatrol -- I've already ordered the Redding Body Die and Lee Collet die -- so no expander ball.

 

[bruce moulds]

Trouble with what die, Bruce?

HogPatrol -- I've already ordered the Redding Body Die and Lee Collet die -- so no expander ball.

it oversizes the neck.