What is it about European cartridges in North America?

[Ragman]

This is a question that I've wanted to ask for a long time but have been afraid that it will get me blackballed from AH...Lol!!! This question is aimed more at the North American hunters on here as I understand why our European brothers love them. And right up front I admit that I am completely ignorant about them, before I joined AH I think I had only heard of the 6.5x55 and the 7x57. But even though I'm woefully clueless about the rest, surely they all have a ballistic equivalent out of the commonly used North American rounds? So. What is it about these many different European cartridges that attract North American hunters? Do they offer something that you can't get out of NA cartridges? Or is it just the novelty of owning something that the average hunter over here doesn't have? I am not a handloader, so I like to stick to the more common calibers that I can easily buy ammunition for and I rarely see much for the European ones for sale. Thanks!

 

[baxterb]

Nostalgia.

and also eventually you will realize how brilliantly some of them were designed (like Brenneke’s cartridges) and all the sudden the 270,280,06 etc seem positively pedestrian.

 

[Professor Mawla]

Americans love and appreciate all sorts of firearms ( regardless of country of origin ) . It is what makes the United States my favorite country in the entire world .

 

[mdwest]

Americans love and appreciate all sorts of firearms ( regardless of country of origin ) . It is what makes the United States my favorite country in the entire world .

The Professor is absolutely correct..

We are able to have as many firearms as we wish here.. and in most states, we are allowed just about any kind of firearm that we wish..

"American" calibers have always prevailed here.. youre going to see a dozen .308's and 30-06 and 300 win mags for every 7x57, 8x57, and 300H&H... but our population is big enough, and the availability of weapons and ammo is large and diverse enough, that you can find just about anything your heart desires here..

I've got firearms in calibers that originated in the US.. calibers that originated in Europe and the UK... russian calibers.. as well as a few wildcats..

Owning a 7x57 for me isnt about believing it has any substantial advantage over a .270 or a .308...

Its more a matter of... I can have both.. so, why not?

 

[Professor Mawla]

The Professor is absolutely correct..

We are able to have as many firearms as we wish here.. and in most states, we are allowed just about any kind of firearm that we wish..

"American" calibers have always prevailed here.. youre going to see a dozen .308's and 30-06 and 300 win mags for every 7x57, 8x57, and 300H&H... but our population is big enough, and the availability of weapons and ammo is large and diverse enough, that you can find just about anything your heart desires here..

I've got firearms in calibers that originated in the US.. calibers that originated in Europe and the UK... russian calibers.. as well as a few wildcats..

Owning a 7x57 for me isnt about believing it has any substantial advantage over a .270 or a .308...

Its more a matter of... I can have both.. so, why not?

@mdwest
We must not forget my personal favorite - The .338 Winchester Magnum .

 

[Newboomer]

A lot of it concerns "fitting in" when we hunt foriegn countries. It's nice to have a caliber the locals are familiar with. It kind of shows appreciation and respect. And, frankly, some of the European calibers do a much better job in such places as Africa. They have no American equivalent.

 

[Red Leg]

Truth in lending, from a typical North American game animal's perspective, there is no meaningful difference between a group of cartridges such as the 7x57, 7x64, 6.5X57, 8X57, .270, 280, AND 30-06. However, the rifles in which many of these European creations are chambered can be very special indeed. The rimmed versions such as the 7x57R, 7x65R, and 6.5x57R are often housed in some of the most beautiful single shots and combination guns ever created - perfectly balanced and useful firearms that make pre-64 Model 70 feel like a pipe in a 2x4. This Bradshaw 7x65R is an example.

When one moves up into the realm of the 9.3, whether the 62mm in a bolt action or the 74R in a host of wonderful double rifles, they occupy a relatively low recoiling hard hitting niche not really filled by a corresponding caliber except perhaps the venerable Whelen. The 62 and 74R are something like the .338 Win Mag without all the drama. And of course you would have a hard time finding a 35 or .338 in a configuration like this pre-war German double.

The British, of course, pretty much defined the general purpose and dangerous game calibers for Africa, so I would assume your question didn't really refer to something like the .375.

My Rigby Highland Stalker in .275 (an Anglicized name for the 7x57) essentially does nothing that a Remington 700 won't do in .280. But that Rigby represents a level of tradition and craftsmanship somewhat missing in the usual Remington.

It is the special quality of so many of those firearms that is the attraction for me.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Sometimes Americans (people living in the. USA) forget that North America is composed of several countries, and each has its own traditions. So the Canadians enjoy an historical relationship with the United Kingdom. Mexico has cultural links to Spain, and to a lesser extent, Germany. The USA is a melting pot of ideas and traditions, which make it a bit unique.

Part of the problem in gaining success for gunmakers and ammunition suppliers from Europe is just the problem of engaging the North American market - it is huge and diverse - and very different from the European (EU) market. The cost of marketing to such a large market is not insignificant. I know from my business experience that doing business in the USA is different than in Europe... attitudes and methods are often quite different. The European sporting arms suppliers may find the challenge daunting. On the other hand, some European firms have committed to the NA market and have found success - Beretta, for example, has done well.

In Canada and Mexico the metric system of weights and measures has been adopted and serves them well. In the USA the resistance to adopting the metric system defeated the effort some years ago. So shooters in the US seem more likely to adopt cartridges denominated in Imperial measure - in inches. Who wants to shoot 70mm shotshells when you can have 2-3/4" shotshells. The same , but somehow different.

CIP (European) and SAAMI (USA) standards are different and hard for many to understand. There is no simple way to equate the two standards.

That said, many more 'Americans' are becoming aware of Europen cartridge offerings, and maybe someday, ammunition and components for these cartridges will be more widely available in North America.

I hope so. I love my 7X57.

 

[Ragman]

Truth in lending, from a typical North American game animal's perspective, there is no meaningful difference between a group of cartridges such as the 7x57, 7x64, 6.5X57, 8X57, .270, 280, AND 30-06. However, the rifles in which many of these European creations are chambered can be very special indeed. The rimmed versions such as the 7x57R, 7x65R, and 6.5x57R are often housed in some of the most beautiful single shots and combination guns ever created - perfectly balanced and useful firearms that make pre-64 Model 70 feel like a pipe in a 2x4. This Bradshaw 7x65R is an example.

When one moves up into the realm of the 9.3, whether the 62mm in a bolt action or the 74R in a host of wonderful double rifles, they occupy a relatively low recoiling hard hitting niche not really filled by a corresponding caliber except perhaps the venerable Whelen. The 62 and 74R are something like the .338 Win Mag without all the drama. And of course you would have a hard time finding a 35 or .338 in a configuration like this pre-war German double.

The British, of course, pretty much defined the general purpose and dangerous game calibers for Africa, so I would assume your question didn't really refer to something like the .375.

My Rigby Highland Stalker in .275 (an Anglicized name for the 7x57) essentially does nothing that a Remington 700 won't do in .280. But that Rigby represents a level of tradition and craftsmanship somewhat missing in the usual Remington.

It is the special quality of so many of those firearms that is the attraction for me.

This makes a lot of sense and I never considered the rifles themselves. Thank you sir.

 

[dchamp]

My first rifle was a Spanish made Mauser in 8x57. I bought it for something like $20.00 at the local hardware store when I was 15 years old. The reason I bought it instead of the Springfield 1903 was because the Springfield was more money and I didn't have the difference. Since then I have had a love affair with the 8x57 and 8mm in general. As a result I have never had the desire nor need for a 30-06. Heresy I know but so be it.

What amazes me is how prolific the .308, 30-06 and .300WM seems to be in Europe. It is my understanding, which could be very wrong, is that there are more of these three calibers than the 8x57 or 8x68s both of which are equal equivalents to the other three.

 

[Longwalker]

To me, it's mostly about the rifles that shoot those European cartridges. I prefer European rifles for most of my shooting purposes. I have more than I need, but I like to experience and experiment with different rifles and cartridges.

The .30-06 or .270 cartridge are functional, but are a poor "second best" choice to use in a light double rifle or single shot break action. Those guns were designed for proper rimmed cartridges like the 7x57R, 7x765R and 8x57IRS.

And there is practically no functional equivalent to the 9.3x74R in USA designed cartridges.

The same goes for any of the bigger dangerous game cartridges for double rifles. .450-400, .470, .500 etc. all are better than choosing a rimless or belted cartridge to shoot from a double rifle. Many many people have used and been satisfied with the performance of a .375 H&H cartridge in a double rifle, or even a .458 Win, but I believe they are a mismatch. Double rifles call for a rimmed cartridge, low operating pressure, and a standardized bullet weight and loading. The .375 and .458 are designed for bolt actions. There are comparatively many double rifles made and used in Europe, and few in the USA. I chose a .450-400 3" double for my dangerous game rifle.

The 7x64 did what the .280 Remington attempted to do, and did it right the first time, many years before. The .280 has no real reason to exist, except for the American market, and American resistance to metric measurements. In Canada we have access to some makes and models of rifles not available in the USA. All four of the 7x64 rifles that I have owned were chambered in rifles generally unavailable or rare in the USA market, and in rifles I believe to be superior to the common USA makes.

The opposite applies as well. The USA standard .30-06 is deservedly popular worldwide, and is very common in Europe. Same with the .300 Winchester Magnum. But best used in bolt action rifles, where those cartridges belong.

The .308 cartridge is an in-between - American by design but is truly a worldwide cartridge because of its use by NATO in its military version.

So right now I shoot an Anschutz .222 and a CZ ZKK 601 in .222 ( which has become a Euro standard and dropped from the USA cartridge lineup) Brno 22F 7x57, Merkel O/U Combo in 16 ga. 7x57R, Krieghoff Trumpf drilling 16x16/7x57R, Steyr Mannlicher 7x64, Sako M85 Bavarian in 7x64, Krieghoff Hubertus .30 R Blaser, CZ 527 carbine in 7.62x39, Brno 21H 8x57IS, Beretta Silver Sable O/U Express 9.3x74R, Verney Carron Impact Plus takedown in 9.3x62, Merkel 140 AE in .450-400 3" NE, and besides those, another three bolt action .30-06 rifles and three bolt action .308's. And a couple of .375 H&Hs. But all except one of them are Euro rifles.

In Canada, our cartridge suppliers are dominated by USA manufacturers. So yes, I am a handloader. My preferences for European rifles would be much more difficult to indulge in Canada, if I was limited to factory cartridges.

 

[mark-hunter]

For me, European.
I prefer European traditional hunting cartridges, more then military cartridges used for hunting, and more then european military cartridges used for hunting.
That is in theory and preference, only.

But, first priority is availability of cartridge in local shops. And when it gets to final choice of caliber, I will opt for vannila caliber, available locally, sufficient muzzle energy for specific hunt, regardles of its history and origin.

An example, I was dead on, focused, to get myself allround boltaction, in 7x64, true European hunting caliber.
But, when I was not able to find it, I took the same in 30-06. Due to market supply. No regrets

Lets see some popularity, of some cartridges from my perspective.

Rimfires:
22lr (american) - no competition in European caliber
22 wmr - ditto

Pistol and revolver cartridges:
9x19 (European) - no competiton in American caliber
45 acp - (american) - no competition in European caliber
44sw - (american) - no competition in European caliber
38 sp, 357 mag, 44 mag - (american) - no competition in European caliber
Pistol and revolver world is ruled by american calibers.
But none of them approaches popularity (and cost) of 9x19

Rifle:
6.5 class
6.5x55, 6.5x57 vs 6.5 creedmoor. Nordic countries 6.5x55 wins popuarity, but for the rest... I would say 6.5 CM is winning present lap of poplarity race. Use of 6.5 is limited, and with energey on lower end for all round rifle. In many cases it will be for roe deer, a second rifle, and big brother in Europe will alwasy be something from 7mm up. In a small 6.5mm hunting world, 6.5 CM is gaining fast. Today 6.5 cm is fashion, we are yet to see if ti will become classic.

7 mm class:
270 win (american), in competion with 7x64 (european) - 270 more popular in US, 7mm x64 more popular in Europe, but I am under impression, 270 is gaining in popularity on expense of 7mm x 64. To add 7x57, is incoparable, this caliber is loosing popularity all over, many factories do not produce any more rifles in 7x57.

7-8 mm class:
30-06 (american) vs 8x57 (european), 30-06 I would say, 50-50% in popularity on traditional EU continent, but 30-06 is gaining popularity slowly and steadily. For America it is absolute, ultimate caliber - 30-06.
8x57 not popular in US, helped by fact that some american factories offer ammo with inferior powder load, reducing performence down from true pottential.

Then we have class of 9.3, a european turf.
From American calibers, hard to find similar, maybe 35 Whelen. It is my impression that 9.3 class are definitely on European side of popularity, on both continents. 9.3x62, mostly. There is also 9.3x64, ballistic equivalent of 375 HH, but in popularity is very shy. Few facories make ammo for 9.3x64. (for euroepean hunting, is a bit too strong, for Africa, is not everywhere legal for DG.)

Break actions
Then the rimmed. flanged cartitrdges - for break actions.
Definitely, popularity is on european side. Most of break actions, still popular, traditionally come from europe and UK. SO, european flanged calibers win popularity contest here.

Magnums.
Hmmm.
300 win vs 8x68.
300 win mag, wns popularity contest.
8x68, is still there, but becoming scarse. Only few factories make ammo for 8x68

So this is from my perspective, estimate. Could be wrong. There are hundreds of cartridges world wide, went quickly trough most popular ones that came to mind.

 

[Longwalker]

- Just thought of something, the .450-400 3" Nitro Express was an obsolete British cartridge actually resurrected by Hornady. Even though my rifle is a German Merkel I shoot USA ammunition out of it. Go figure.

 

[Opposite Pole]

It’s interesting to me that no one mentioned 338 Federal so far, looking at ballistic tables (I’ve no practical experience with it) it’s seems to be not too far from the European 9.3s. Does it have any following in US? I’ve never seen ammo for it in Europe anywhere and most folks have never heard of it but it picked my curiosity.

In Poland the American cartridges are at least as popular as the European ones. 30-06 is number 1 followed by 308 and 7x* 8x* followed by 9x*.

Magnums are not popular here, mostly due to short shooting distances, 200m is legal maximum and is by local standards a fairly long shot.

 

[Philip Glass]

This is a question that I've wanted to ask for a long time but have been afraid that it will get me blackballed from AH...Lol!!! This question is aimed more at the North American hunters on here as I understand why our European brothers love them. And right up front I admit that I am completely ignorant about them, before I joined AH I think I had only heard of the 6.5x55 and the 7x57. But even though I'm woefully clueless about the rest, surely they all have a ballistic equivalent out of the commonly used North American rounds? So. What is it about these many different European cartridges that attract North American hunters? Do they offer something that you can't get out of NA cartridges? Or is it just the novelty of owning something that the average hunter over here doesn't have? I am not a handloader, so I like to stick to the more common calibers that I can easily buy ammunition for and I rarely see much for the European ones for sale. Thanks!

I am with you. It’s a head scratcher for me. I suppose it is just the thing of wishing for a different caliber. I just switch off when the conversation moves to European calibers.
Philip

 

[WAB]

I’m a mix, or perhaps just mixed up! My favorite rifles are chambered in 7x57, 9.3x62, .375 H&H and .458 Lott.

 

[Rimshot]

Good thread and I've enjoyed reading the thoughts and perspectives.

I definitely would fall into the 'mixed' crowd, having several common American, obsolete, and Euro chamberings.

Often, the particular gun I'm interested in just isn't available in a common American cartridge (e.g. a pre-war drilling), but as a handloader as long as that cartridge is ballistically up to the task I have in mind it doesn't matter.

Sometimes, the relative obscurity makes the gun itself much cheaper than it would be in a common caliber. Anyone remember the 1990's when you could buy a whole crate of surplus Swedish M96s for a few C-notes? More recently CDNN Sports was blowing out Ruger #1s in 9.3x74r for iirc $699. I should have bought more than I did!

I've gone the opposite way as well. For example, I'd prefer a rimmed cartridge in a single shot or break in half gun, but sometimes the only 'off the shelf' options are the typical rimless offerings. Special ordering the proper rimmed chambering is possible, but not worth the extra expense (sometimes adding 50% to the cost).

I will also note that some cartridge designs did not have a decent American equivalent until recently. Take the 6.5x55 for example. The design handles long, heavy for caliber bullets that can be seated without intruding into the case. Perhaps the 6.5 Rem mag should have been popular, but was too far ahead of it's time? The 6.5-284 Norma has never gained widespread popularity among hunters, due to a few design quirks. The poorly conceived 260 Rem was inferior in many ways and while it enjoyed great popularity early on, is quickly headed for obsolescence. Only now within the last decade does America have a near twin design in the 6.5CM, which neatly fits in with the current 'short-action' craze.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

This is a question that I've wanted to ask for a long time but have been afraid that it will get me blackballed from AH...Lol!!! This question is aimed more at the North American hunters on here as I understand why our European brothers love them. And right up front I admit that I am completely ignorant about them, before I joined AH I think I had only heard of the 6.5x55 and the 7x57. But even though I'm woefully clueless about the rest, surely they all have a ballistic equivalent out of the commonly used North American rounds? So. What is it about these many different European cartridges that attract North American hunters? Do they offer something that you can't get out of NA cartridges? Or is it just the novelty of owning something that the average hunter over here doesn't have? I am not a handloader, so I like to stick to the more common calibers that I can easily buy ammunition for and I rarely see much for the European ones for sale. Thanks!

@Ragman
Up until fairly recently the USA had a NIH ( Not Invented Here) phobia with both rifles and cartridges due possibly to a few different wars. For example the M17's were a far better and more popular battle rifle than the Springfield but because of the NIH factor it was never adopted. The same goes with 6.5 and 8mm cartridges. Both good rounds in their own right but again NIH.
There are quite a few rounds that are balisticly similar to the European ones e.g. 280 rem and 7x64 Breneke basically one and the same. The 35 Whelen is the kissing cousin of the 9.3x62. The list goes on. Americans are just now starting to embrace a few European rounds but there's also still a lot of balistic cross over inherited from the past .
Bob

 

[JimP]

But then there is the question of is the US cartridge similar to the European one or is it the European one similar to the US one?

There used to be a phobia here in the US about anything metric, hence the .284 caliber of cartridges instead of 7mm. Same with the .243's, 257's, and a slew of others.

Now it is the other way around. More of the new cartridges are accepting their metric designation instead of the SAE version.

 

[spike.t]

This is a question that I've wanted to ask for a long time but have been afraid that it will get me blackballed from AH...Lol!!! This question is aimed more at the North American hunters on here as I understand why our European brothers love them. And right up front I admit that I am completely ignorant about them, before I joined AH I think I had only heard of the 6.5x55 and the 7x57. But even though I'm woefully clueless about the rest, surely they all have a ballistic equivalent out of the commonly used North American rounds? So. What is it about these many different European cartridges that attract North American hunters? Do they offer something that you can't get out of NA cartridges? Or is it just the novelty of owning something that the average hunter over here doesn't have? I am not a handloader, so I like to stick to the more common calibers that I can easily buy ammunition for and I rarely see much for the European ones for sale. Thanks!

Simple...and am obviously not from usa....European ones are far superior.....bought a mauser m12 in 30-06 to see what the fuss was ...now wish I had got it in 8x57 or 9.3x62....do have a PWS 114 in .223 wylde but that is for necessary reasons...and 2 458 lotts...but rest are in proper English or European calibres ....unfortunately I do like 1911s so I do confess to 4 of those ....but am also a believer in heavy bullets travelling at correct speed...not light things at warp speed....oh just remembered I have a steyr ssg in 7.62...and a converted G3...sold my FAL and M1A1....but 7.62 is bit of an international flavour....so....yeah that's it simple and factual