Why all the hate for CBL (Captive-Bred Lion) Hunting?

[Sideshow]

I know how I feel (not opposed, if my parameters are met).

This is possibly the most worthy topic of the 'eating popcorn' emoji on this site, right after the do-all nature of the .243 Winchester.

Wait STOP! You mean the .243 win can do it all!

God help those with a 6.5 manbun when they find this out

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

It’s easy to equate ethics to money, but most people can’t afford $20,000 -$40,000 hunts. So i think that’s an unfair statement. I understand that outfitting is a business and businesses want to make money. I don’t have an issue with that as we all want to improve our financial position and do well. I’m looking to do an elk hunt and recently talked to many outfits at the Harrisburg PA show which I’ve attended for 25+ years and is one of the biggest in the US. These hunts have increased dramatically the past five years. I’ve also talked to AH sponsors and outfitters and quotes from last year to this year have gone up 30% in 1 year to over $13k. Again outfitters can set their price and hunters can choose to pay what they can. I’m a capitalist so no issue. But stop putting the term “ethical” into an outfitter or hunters choice. We all can make this decision.

My statement wasn't only on Lions. I was referring to hunting in general. The reality is that there are people that will happily pay $4000 for an Elk in a 800 acre area, hunt with a guide that has been around for 1 year and be happy that he shot a big bull, when there are $13,000 hunts in big areas where the overall experience is better, passed up 6 bulls to finally find "the one", he got to hunt with experienced guides, got to learn and really be apart of the process.

"Ethics" is up to the hunter.

We all have to draw our own lines now.

To each, his own, as far as I am concerned.

We all make our on "ethics."

This is exactly my point. That line that has been drawn, moves, depending on the price.

 

[mark-hunter]

The reality is that there are people that will happily pay $4000 for an Elk in a 800 acre area, hunt with a guide that has been around for 1 year and be happy that he shot a big bull, when there are $13,000 hunts in big areas where the overall experience is better, passed up 6 bulls to finally find "the one", he got to hunt with experienced guides, got to learn and really be apart of the process.

In my earlier posts I forgot to add one thing, that you reminded of me now.

Important factor is success of the hunt.
I had a friend, and he spent two weeks hunting some hills in USA for mountain goat. Never saw one, not to mention getting one. Full price paid. He is not thrilled too much about that. He also travelled half of the world to get there, planned vacation, saved the money. I dont think he will try again.

So, reality is: high value wilderness hunt, with some realistic chance of success, or realistic chance of not succeeding, will always make significant portion of hunting market turning to fenced hunts, where chances are better.
If I could ever afford exportable wild lion hunt, I could only afford it once. Getting one lion, or not.
Not getting it, would be very very bitter experience.
It is not like I go to wild country, and if I dont get it, I will just keep repeating.

I would love to hunt bongo, mountain nyala, or massai species, but I can not afford it. Far away from wild lion.
Thinking about experience only, since I am not interested in CBL, I would gladly (try to) hunt non exportable wild lion if price is reasonable and offer is available,.... but this type of offers I have never seen on the forum.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

A hundred posts on this thread. Kinda amazing. Seems a no brainer. I could never get any kind of satisfaction looking at a "trophy" harvested in that way. Or anything shot in a trap or over bait or out of a tree over dogs. Just not my thing.

 

[mark-hunter]

A hundred posts on this thread. Kinda amazing. Seems a no brainer. I could never get any kind of satisfaction looking at a "trophy" harvested in that way. Or anything shot in a trap or over bait or out of a tree over dogs. Just not my thing.

Me too.
But I do not condemn this practice. It has its place in the world of hunting.

My last hunt was buffalo in Caprivi. I could get it for 50% of Caprivi price, in South Africa.

 

[Sabre]

@Sabre - my guess is that you already “understand” but your post should get things lively quick

For what it's worth, I legitimately didn't feel like I fully understood their position when I asked the question.

I thought about it a lot to consider what might make them feel so much more strongly about lions than other game animals and did have theories. And, I feel like I have seen most the arguments against it I had thought of myself show up in this thread.

For a person who is just completely against any high fence hunting, or put and take hunting, it of course makes sense, it is just congruent with those feelings they already have. But for people that are okay with high fence but strongly opposed to CBL, I wanted to hear what the reasoning is in their minds.

To me, the least convincing argument ever against CBL is that the lion is somehow too special and majestic to hunt certain ways, and they deserve some higher level than other animals.

That just reminds me of people who are okay with hunting deer and elk, but are suddenly very anti-hunting when it comes to mountain lion, bears, bobcats, wolves, etc. If your morals about who is a "monster" for hunting are based on how cute the animal seems to you, then your morals aren't very reliable in a conversation about true conservation.

I do think the information and sentiment that the CBL are put and take and can't really live on the preserve without destroying too much game for the property owner is interesting.

Even in that regard, I am not sure I would consider myself completely opposed to it being legal, because if we allow it with other animals, then I don't see why we wouldn't allow it for lions, other than a level of sentiment we feel towards lion.

 

[Sabre]

In my earlier posts I forgot to add one thing, that you reminded of me now.

Important factor is success of the hunt.
I had a friend, and he spent two weeks hunting some hills in USA for mountain goat. Never saw one, not to mention getting one. Full price paid. He is not thrilled too much about that. He also travelled half of the world to get there, planned vacation, saved the money. I dont think he will try again.

So, reality is: high value wilderness hunt, with some realistic chance of success, or realistic chance of not succeeding, will always make significant portion of hunting market turning to fenced hunts, where chances are better.
If I could ever afford exportable wild lion hunt, I could only afford it once. Getting one lion, or not.
Not getting it, would be very very bitter experience.
It is not like I go to wild country, and if I dont get it, I will just keep repeating.

I would love to hunt bongo, mountain nyala, or massai species, but I can not afford it. Far away from wild lion.
Thinking about experience only, since I am not interested in CBL, I would gladly (try to) hunt non exportable wild lion if price is reasonable and offer is available,.... but this type of offers I have never seen on the forum.

This is something I see that is an interesting trend in guided hunting in North America, and at this point, I suppose globally. Wild hunts, often with limited chance of success, is becoming so expensive that it is starting to, and for many species, has eclipsed high fence guaranteed success hunt's costs.

It used to be that a person would shoot a high fence whitetail or mule deer or elk and people would mock it and say, "what did that cost ya, 15 grand?" But, now a guided elk hunt in the wilderness can cost $25,000+ and there is a relatively decent chance of going home with nothing.

I know we don't hunt for guaranteed success. And, Of course the sense of accomplishment on a wild hunt is always going to mean more to someone than on a high fence hunt. But the point is that it used to be seen as absurd to pay $15,000 for a deer or elk, not just because it was high fence hunting, but because of the price you were paying.

I don't say that to say that high fence whitetail are equal to wild hunted animals on an accomplishment level. It is just interesting that a CHANCE at a smaller trophy wild animal with a guide has now often surpassed the price of a guaranteed much larger trophy animal of the same species on high fence.

 

[DieJager]

Oh ok
But do the press the charge?
I have no dog in this fight just interested.

What I've seen in multiple videos that depends but the chance seems higher. Also talking to different PHs on this subject. Still the stacks are favored to the one holding the gun.

But if it is danger that you are after I've seen a video on this website of cage diving with sharks where the sharks enter the cage.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

I don't say that to say that high fence whitetail are equal to wild hunted animals on an accomplishment level. It is just interesting that a CHANCE at a smaller trophy wild animal with a guide has now often surpassed the price of a guaranteed much larger trophy animal of the same species on high fence.

And neither am I saying that they are the same experience, but there is simply no way that they can be of the same value.
We get a lot less permits for Kudu in our open areas(Only one or two bulls per 2200 acres) as compared to a managed area where the owners basically decide the offtake for the year. So, to make the equation simple, if we have two equal areas of 10,000 acres each. Managed area can take 15-20 bulls for the year, and the other can take between 5-10 bulls for the year, but both needs the same capital to come in. Roads need to be maintained, open areas here also needs some anti-poaching efforts. Lots of little pieces to the puzzle.

 

[Sabre]

And neither am I saying that they are the same experience, but there is simply no way that they can be of the same value.
We get a lot less permits for Kudu in our open areas(Only one or two bulls per 2200 acres) as compared to a managed area where the owners basically decide the offtake for the year. So, to make the equation simple, if we have two equal areas of 10,000 acres each. Managed area can take 15-20 bulls for the year, and the other can take between 5-10 bulls for the year, but both needs the same capital to come in. Roads need to be maintained, open areas here also needs some anti-poaching efforts. Lots of little pieces to the puzzle.

I understand and agree with everything you said. It is just an interesting observation to watch how the landscape of hunting has changed over time in regards to free range vs high fence.

 

[HankBuck]

My 3rd and last post on this. I should have not posted the first time… lol as it’s not my norm. Has anyone heard Ted Nugent comments or Kevin Costner line in Yellowstone? Both lines were something like farmers kill every vole, insect, worm, snake, mouse, etc to plow fields and grow crops to make veggies or tofu for people who protest against killing any animal. They also spray chemicals that do the same and also likely are detrimental to humans. But who gets to decide what animal counts? No one gave any disparaging remarks in the post/picture by Brickburn where pheasants were being released and likely ran into some #7.5 shot within 24 hours. Why not? Is it because anyone can hunt pheasants at a preserve for $150 and the elite can’t say i pay $5k for wild pheasants? Where is the line for raised animals and what animal is left or right of this? Someone please post this list. I don’t have the answer to this but know that the world is more complicated and conservation is not that simple. Again I’m not saying I’m for or against CBL and I’ve never considered it in 4 trips to Africa. But i do believe that those who have hunted wild lions or Bongo or who have gone on exotic hunts in countries outside of SA and have more $ don’t get more of a say on this. Sorry if that offends anyone. Do you eat meat, fish or have a leather belt, furniture, car seats, etc? Do you mount animals? Are cows sacred to you? We all have our thoughts on this and that’s great. But don’t die on your sword thinking your opinion is more valid than others.

@Lee M - it might be good that you stated this is your “last post on this”. Almost everyone - except PETA - differentiate between animals regarding value ie: a “worm” is Not equal to an “Elephant” etc…. So I got lost on your logic comparing released Pheasant to Lions. But, i still get your point and just think your comparisons are to extreme to resonate with anyone (except PETA: a Rat-is a Pig-is a Dog-is a Boy)

 

[Russ16]

In my earlier posts I forgot to add one thing, that you reminded of me now.

Important factor is success of the hunt.
I had a friend, and he spent two weeks hunting some hills in USA for mountain goat. Never saw one, not to mention getting one. Full price paid. He is not thrilled too much about that. He also travelled half of the world to get there, planned vacation, saved the money. I dont think he will try again.

So, reality is: high value wilderness hunt, with some realistic chance of success, or realistic chance of not succeeding, will always make significant portion of hunting market turning to fenced hunts, where chances are better.
If I could ever afford exportable wild lion hunt, I could only afford it once. Getting one lion, or not.
Not getting it, would be very very bitter experience.
It is not like I go to wild country, and if I dont get it, I will just keep repeating.

I would love to hunt bongo, mountain nyala, or massai species, but I can not afford it. Far away from wild lion.
Thinking about experience only, since I am not interested in CBL, I would gladly (try to) hunt non exportable wild lion if price is reasonable and offer is available,.... but this type of offers I have never seen on the forum.

I have no interest in hunting where there is no chance of failure.

My first big out of state hunt was nearly 40 years ago. I had just gotten out of school and had a real job. I saved for three years and booked and elk hunt in the Bob Marshall wilderness. Weather turned unseasonably warm and the elk went into deep hiding. Two guys took deer and I chased one group of elk through deep timber for two days and never got a shot. It is one of the great memories of my life.

For me it is about the hunt not the kill without a chance of failure I feel the hunt is devalued.

 

[HankBuck]

A hundred posts on this thread. Kinda amazing. Seems a no brainer. I could never get any kind of satisfaction looking at a "trophy" harvested in that way. Or anything shot in a trap or over bait or out of a tree over dogs. Just not my thing.

@Ontario Hunter - as always “your way is best”….but you brag about hunting with your dog?? I guess now it’s the “Tree” that you draw the line at? And you’re clearly Not a Trapper - how would you suggest dispatching a trapped coyote/fox etc…(Punch it?). Anyway - poking fun at your expense a bit because you make a few good points but lose the overall message {if there was one?} in a mess of “my way” philosophy.

 

[Certus]

It has the same meaning to me. There might be land available but the ecosystem is gone and unlikely to ever be replaced. Where there are people and cattle and unstable governments Lions aren’t going to be welcome. If a newly formed and protected national park should want lions and have the funding to do it, there are lions available in places like Bubye Valley in Zimbabwe and Big 5 reserves in South Africa likely several others with excess cats.

Just like the wolves of America - unwelcome back where they once roamed.
I wonder what people would think of brown bear reintroduction, hmm

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

You sure like to read into things. I will be correcting nothing. Nothing to do with CBL. I recognize and understand that the African PH’s way of life can be difficult and I’m sympathetic to that, nothing more, nothing less. I think you know exactly what I meant but let me spell it out as clear as possible : There are those who find it acceptable and ethical to hunt CBL. They have a clear conscience. There are some that find it unethical and the practice is unacceptable to them. You may share your opinion, but you seem to have this habit of dictating.

Clear conscience? Or…. No conscience?? Or at the very least a problematic one…

Seriously though, in other posts you talk about members or phs in good standing that have done it. That’s fine. Whatever.. I for one have a problem with and do lose respect for anyone that engages in that practice. They certainly have no right to talk about conservation after that. Unless they regret what they did…

 

[mark-hunter]

I had just gotten out of school and had a real job

Great story.
Fresh out of school, saved the money and go hunting!
Probably young and not married?

At that time, of my age, I cared for nothing but adventure.

But now, on the other hand, I could not justify to my family ,kids at college, wife at home, spending 50, 100 k, on a hunt, not even successful if that happens.
So, I just go on a hunts I can pay for, without affecting my family standards. Last being, cape buffalo in Caprivi.
But wild lion is out of my range. CBL I am not interested in. And, as I said earlier, I wouldn't mind hunting wild non exportable lion, for acceptable price, for experience, memory and adventure. Trophy is no longer my main goal.
In the same time, I understand why many hunters opt for CBL. I have nothing against their decision.

 

[Russ16]

Great story.
Fresh out of school, saved the money and go hunting!
Probably young and not married?

At that time, of my age, I cared for nothing but adventure.

But now, on the other hand, I could not justify to my family ,kids at college, wife at home, spending 50, 100 k, on a hunt, not even successful if that happens.
So, I just go on a hunts I can pay for, without affecting my family standards. Last being, cape buffalo in Caprivi.
But wild lion is out of my range. CBL I am not interested in. And, as I said earlier, I wouldn't mind hunting wild non exportable lion, for acceptable price, for experience, memory and adventure. Trophy is no longer my main goal.
In the same time, I understand why many hunters opt for CBL. I have nothing against their decision.

I agree they are welcome to their decision I don’t care it just isn’t for me.

Yeah I wasn’t married when I took that first elk hunt. Then got married then got divorced, rebuilt the money I lost in that and now engaged again. Through it all I took the hunts I could afford and dreamed and saved for bigger ones. I haven’t even been to Africa yet because I couldn’t afford to do it the way I wanted to. First trip will be to Zimbabwe next year. Not sure when I can afford the next one.

 

[Safari Dave]

I know there is virtually no elephant hunting done at 200M, I used it as (a poor) way of saying that would not be interested, because I don't think it would be sporting.


Perhaps, the movie "Secondhand Lions" is more along the lines of what I think about CBL hunting.

 

[Rare Breed]

No one in this thread has done a wild lion hunt.

It just that captive breading lions to be released hunted within the month is has no conservation value and goes against what we defend.

I can’t support it

Not true, he only checked in with a thumbs up on some comments but @Philip Glass took a beauty with D&Y a truly wild lion he worked hard for

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Six pages and counting, I’m sure we’ll get this resolved here shortly.
I believe that each hunter has a right to take an animal in a legal fashion that fits their own level of expectation.
For myself, I enjoy the challenge of hunting animals in a wild non-fenced environment.
Here’s a pic of a wild lion I shot in Zambia. It was a fantastic hunt and the cost today has doubled since this hunt in 2018.

HH