Why didn't Germany or Continental Europe develop big bore cartridges like the British did?

[One Day...]

As to the French inventions, look no further than the stoner ar15 bolt, almost an exact copy of a French bolt from, I believe, the 1920’s

You are correct

The AR10/AR15 primary operating principles (direct gas impingement and rotating bolt head actuated by a cam cut in the bolt body) come directly from the first semi auto combat rifle adopted by a military, the RSC 17 semi automatic rifle (1917), developed and adopted, you guessed it, by the French
Close to 100,000 were issued before WW I ended.

 

[Russ16]

I am not debating that point. My thesis is based on Germany and Austria winning the war rather than Great Britain - and France, the US, Italy and Japan. They didn't. But in that alternative universe where the Central Powers did emerge victorious, the development of dangerous game rifles and the rounds they fired would have been quite different.

Also an interesting question if the central powers had won would American sportsman have had the same access to the safari lands? Who knows how that would have played out but American sportsman had a big influence on the growth of certain guns and calibers. Would they have traveled to German controlled colonies. And would the dollar have had the same purchasing power? The depression hit Europe first as the dollar bought a lot.

Not to mention the knock on effect of likely no WWII and the post war American ascendancy.

 

[318AE]

I’ve read, but cannot confirm, that between the wars the Brits sold far more sporting arms into India than all their African colonies combined. The impact on the gun trade of Britain’s India interest was substantial.

The British makers just seemed to have a penchant for proprietary calibers specific to brand. It may have been a “razor and blades” model. Who else made a 476 Westley Richards, or a 416 Rigby for that matter?

By comparison, I’ve seen many high quality German guild guns, chambered for common cartridges, unbranded by maker or retailer. The epitome of “buy the rifle not the brand”.

 

[Schroeder]

Particularly after World War 1the 10.75 × 68 became a very popular export caliber. During her heyday between the great wars all European gun factories offered 10.75 Mauser rifles as a standard chambering. Practically all based on the Mauser 98 action, these rifles proved to be a tempting offer to people without a big budget who were looking for a lightweight and handy large bore bolt action rifle. It was even sold and exported to many of the British colonies. I have one of these rifles myself. This one was made in Obendorf by Sauer, but has British proof marks. It’s a light fine handling

 

[Pondoro]

The 10.75 x 68 was used for moose hunting in Scandinavia..a small number though..

 

[HWL]

Why didn't the Americans develope cars like BMW, Mercedes, Audi or Porsche?
Or at least Toyota!!!

HWL

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Back to the original question.
Europe did (well, Germany) design large bore hunting cartridges, 12.7x65r express (1881 design), 12.7x60r express and 12.7x76r express , that I can recall
Gumpy

 

[rookhawk]

Yes I'm aware of the 500 Schuler but in general when you think big bore, dangerous game cartridges it's the British (and Americans) that come to mind. Sure Germany had the popular 9.3x62 but it's not quite in the same league as the following.

375 Holland and Holland
416 Rigby
450 NE
470 NE
500 NE
577 NE
505 Gibbs etc.

Was it because the British were more heavily invested in their colonial ventures throughout Africa and India?

Am I overlooking any big European thumpers that didn't originate in the UK?

Don't forget that many of the above had a metric nomenclature and was used on the continent as well. 404Jeff's metric twin was quite popular, Wyatt alluded to a very popular 10mm above as well. The 9.3x64 brenneke was certainly a capable and popular one, so was and is the 9.3x74r.

There was never big demand anywhere for the "stoppers" so there was probably just enough global demand for the 470NE and up to justify their existence, but not a metric cousin.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Why didn't the Americans develope cars like BMW, Mercedes, Audi or Porsche?
Or at least Toyota!!!

HWL

Cord automobiles…..
Gumpy

 

[CoElkHunter]

Why didn't the Americans develope cars like BMW, Mercedes, Audi or Porsche?
Or at least Toyota!!!

HWL

One of my neighbors in the '80s told me he had served in the German army in WW2. One time he showed me his rather nasty battle scar from the war. He was a fine gentleman and his wife was also very nice. Anyway, they had one car, a MINT '67(?) Buick Riviera with the flip up headlights. But he told me to buy a BMW and not a Mercedez as the BMWs were much better built. Maybe at that time? Years later I did buy a BMW Z3 and we really enjoyed it. As to your question, the average American car buyer back in the day couldn't afford to buy any of those cars you listed, let alone an American made Cadillac, Lincoln, Corvette, etc. Those were "dream" cars owned by wealthier people here and a "prize" to own someday by everyone else "when their ship came in". In the '50s through the late '70s here, there were very few affordable imported vehicles. I think Toyota was one of the first. So, our automobile manufacturers made vehicles that everyone could afford. A lot of those cars were JUNK but hey, that's the models they made and WE had no other choices. Globalization wasn't on anyone's radar yet.

 

[DieJager]

Back to the original question.
Europe did (well, Germany) design large bore hunting cartridges, 12.7x65r express (1881 design), 12.7x60r express and 12.7x76r express , that I can recall
Gumpy

Do you have any links or articles of those calibers. Do not find any useful via web search.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Do you have any links or articles of those calibers. Do not find any useful via web search.

Cartridge collectors forum.
Gumpy

 

[grand veneur]

In the past, all countries used big bore black powder cartridges. When the NC-powder came available the calibers were, due to the improved performance of the cartridges, able to be reduced. I don't think that's what the topic is about.

 

[Altitude sickness]

One of my neighbors in the '80s told me he had served in the German army in WW2. One time he showed me his rather nasty battle scar from the war. He was a fine gentleman and his wife was also very nice. Anyway, they had one car, a MINT '67(?) Buick Riviera with the flip up headlights. But he told me to buy a BMW and not a Mercedez as the BMWs were much better built. Maybe at that time? Years later I did buy a BMW Z3 and we really enjoyed it. As to your question, the average American car buyer back in the day couldn't afford to buy any of those cars you listed, let alone an American made Cadillac, Lincoln, Corvette, etc. Those were "dream" cars owned by wealthier people here and a "prize" to own someday by everyone else "when their ship came in". In the '50s through the late '70s here, there were very few affordable imported vehicles. I think Toyota was one of the first. So, our automobile manufacturers made vehicles that everyone could afford. A lot of those cars were JUNK but hey, that's the models they made and WE had no other choices. Globalization wasn't on anyone's radar yet.

My wife has owned sport convertible BMW, Cadillac, Mercedes and Corvettes. This fall she sold her Mercedes convertible and returned to a Vette. The Corvette is higher quality and cheaper to insure and repair than the Mercedes. None of the above are as reliable as most Toyota products.

 

[Horbs]

Why? The Germans have invented numerous calibers suitable for large game...
- 9.3x62 by Otto Bock
- 9.3x64 by Brenneke
- 10.75x68 from Mauser
- 11.2x72 by Schüler
- 12.7x70 by Schüler (.500 Jeffery)

These were just the best-known representatives. All calibers with which countless big game were successfully hunted in German, French and Belgian colonies.
This stupid rule with the minimum caliber of .375" or 9.5 mm only existed in the British colonies. Or the British simply "presented" German calibers as their own. The .500 "Jeffery", or .275 "Rigby" for example. That was probably the British thanks for receiving thousands of rifles 98s from Mauser. One should also not forget that apart from the British no one else Cordite cartridges were developed in the 20th century, which is why German cartridges are generally more compact. And then the fact that Germany had to give up its colonies after the First World War probably meant that from a German perspective there was simply no longer any need for them such developments existed.

with ironic greetings

 

[grand veneur]

Why? The Germans have invented numerous calibers suitable for large game...
- 9.3x62 by Otto Bock
- 9.3x64 by Brenneke
- 10.75x68 from Mauser
- 11.2x72 by Schüler
- 12.7x70 by Schüler (.500 Jeffery)

These were just the best-known representatives. All calibers with which countless big game were successfully hunted in German, French and Belgian colonies.
This stupid rule with the minimum caliber of .375" or 9.5 mm only existed in the British colonies. Or the British simply "presented" German calibers as their own. The .500 "Jeffery", or .275 "Rigby" for example. That was probably the British thanks for receiving thousands of rifles 98s from Mauser. One should also not forget that apart from the British no one else Cordite cartridges were developed in the 20th century, which is why German cartridges are generally more compact. And then the fact that Germany had to give up its colonies after the First World War probably meant that from a German perspective there was simply no longer any need for them such developments existed.

with ironic greetings

There must be a minimum caliber for hunting big game otherwise all the softies who are not able to support the recoil of a big bore rifle would shoot on big game with whatever.

Why the British continued to hold on to Cordite with all its disadvantages is due to a special mentality of the native culture of this time.

Germany lost its colonies in 1914. Tanzania resisted throughout the WWI thanks to Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck, the only German general who emerge victorious from WWI. Germany almost gained something in addition to its colonies in East Africa. It is difficult to answer whether big bore cartridges would have been developed after that. It is possible, because for example the cartridge 12,7x70 was developed by Schüler in the twenties, but it is not certain.

 

[grand veneur]

The savior of Tanganjika.

 

[Horbs]

There must be a minimum caliber for hunting big game otherwise all the softies who are not able to support the recoil of a big bore rifle would shoot on big game with whatever.

Why the British continued to hold on to Cordite with all its disadvantages is due to a special mentality of the native culture of this time.

Germany lost its colonies in 1914. Tanzania resisted throughout the WWI thanks to Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck, the only German general who emerge victorious from WWI. Germany almost gained something in addition to its colonies in East Africa. It is difficult to answer whether big bore cartridges would have been developed after that. It is possible, because for example the cartridge 12,7x70 was developed by Schüler in the twenties, but it is not certain.

I also think that for safety reasons not every hunting tourist in Africa is allowed to play Karamoja Bell. Yes, I know about German East Africa and its General Lettow-Vorbeck. He is considered a war hero by many people around the world, only in Germany is he considered a “war criminal”. But that's just mentioned in passing. What should also be added is that the global ivory trade collapsed completely after World War I. Many animal species were almost extinct at that time and it took several decades for the populations to recover to some extent

 

[PerH]

And many of the Germans bought or acquired British cartridges also , or made inn Germany inn British chambering also .

Like the Bengt Berg guns were several sets in British ammo for them . And the list of UK types ordered by Germans of many kind is another one to think of .

 

[Horbs]

But that is something different than if, for example, a company like Mauser had brought a rifle onto the German market with the caliber "10.57x73/ 10.75x73 Mauser" instead of .416 Rigby or .404 Jeffery. But never mind. The Germans were vastly superior to the British when it came to repeating rifles and their calibers. While the British were unbeaten when it came to double-barreled rifles and their calibers, even though the competition from Germany, Belgium and Italy was already pretty strong at the time. You could also say that it was something like a civil arms race and, as in war, all means were permitted - on all sides

And many of the Germans bought or acquired British cartridges also , or made inn Germany inn British chambering also .

Like the Bengt Berg guns were several sets in British ammo for them . And the list of UK types ordered by Germans of many kind is another one to think of .