35 whelen pressures

[45-70guy]

I’ve done some serious digging on the search menu here and many other forums, it’s hard to find more than 1 or 2 cases to concretely determine what I’m trying to lock down.
I have seen a few guys running CFE223 do get impressive velocity, and my Maine concern now is running 250g bullets. Specifically Speer hot cores, hornady RN, and oryx. All in a 22” barrel Remington 700.

I’ve found that with IMR 4064, H-4895, and Varget that max Listed loads I’m just under or just over 2300 FPS.
Accuracy with these are good.
With CFE223 from start to finish what Speer lists I start at 2320 up to 2565 at the max.
Accuracy all good with these loads from start to finish, all under 1”.
While 20 degrees F I like to download ten slightly to allow use in warmer temps.
“Pressure” signs none are existent when compared to a Factory Winchester load in my chamber. Measurements at the pressure ring, if that’s what the technical term is, are matching my current cfe223 loads all the way up to 63g.
When I get to 64 grains that measurement is on average 0.0003” larger.
Ken waters normally referenced that he would drop down 3-5% from when he reached 0.0003-0.0005” of expansion for a comparison.

Every rifle being different, I’m trying to find legit concrete pressures that would be considered safe in this cartridge.
LEE second edition claims their data up to 60,000 psi, where Speer 14 was back at 52,000.
(I checked 06 , 270, 25-06, to compare similar rifles using that case and also that same Remington 700 rifle)
06 being “regulated” at 50,000 which does show they allow more for a 35 whelen chamber.
I’d like to see confirmations on if there’s more people running these powders and such velocities, it seems that for the majority of the whelens life guys ran 2300-2400 and maybe 2500 maxed with the 22-24” barrels and powders of the day.

But now 2500 seems to be the starting point.
I’m pushing towards cfe223 at a 2400fps for a compromise of “tolerance” between components, and temp. Which will be tested from low to start when the time comes, but also to increase case life.

What are the guys running 2500+ getting for case life?

That was long and I’ll be back for more but curious on some ideas and comments. I feel like I’ve been digging into forums for a week straight on just these topics

 

[Art Lambart II]

Awaiting Bob answer, it should be good.

 

[45-70guy]

It’s actually Bobs posts I found that put me on track with CFE223. In which I was happy to break 2400 FPS until I was then breaking 2500 FPS.

To add to my data collected each grain increase I had gave me an average of 30 FPS more.
Cases all extracted easily, bolt lift normal, etc... the normal.

BUT after 2 firings my cases did stretch enough they needed trimming, as I found out the max load of 64g gave me just the ever so slightest shiney mark of the ejector and when I measured these cases were over max listed length.

These cases specifically being hornady factory new to begin with. At this time being 2x fired.

 

[Deepfork]

I’ve done some serious digging on the search menu here and many other forums, it’s hard to find more than 1 or 2 cases to concretely determine what I’m trying to lock down.
I have seen a few guys running CFE223 do get impressive velocity, and my Maine concern now is running 250g bullets. Specifically Speer hot cores, hornady RN, and oryx. All in a 22” barrel Remington 700.

I’ve found that with IMR 4064, H-4895, and Varget that max Listed loads I’m just under or just over 2300 FPS.
Accuracy with these are good.
With CFE223 from start to finish what Speer lists I start at 2320 up to 2565 at the max.
Accuracy all good with these loads from start to finish, all under 1”.
While 20 degrees F I like to download ten slightly to allow use in warmer temps.
“Pressure” signs none are existent when compared to a Factory Winchester load in my chamber. Measurements at the pressure ring, if that’s what the technical term is, are matching my current cfe223 loads all the way up to 63g.
When I get to 64 grains that measurement is on average 0.0003” larger.
Ken waters normally referenced that he would drop down 3-5% from when he reached 0.0003-0.0005” of expansion for a comparison.

Every rifle being different, I’m trying to find legit concrete pressures that would be considered safe in this cartridge.
LEE second edition claims their data up to 60,000 psi, where Speer 14 was back at 52,000.
(I checked 06 , 270, 25-06, to compare similar rifles using that case and also that same Remington 700 rifle)
06 being “regulated” at 50,000 which does show they allow more for a 35 whelen chamber.
I’d like to see confirmations on if there’s more people running these powders and such velocities, it seems that for the majority of the whelens life guys ran 2300-2400 and maybe 2500 maxed with the 22-24” barrels and powders of the day.

But now 2500 seems to be the starting point.
I’m pushing towards cfe223 at a 2400fps for a compromise of “tolerance” between components, and temp. Which will be tested from low to start when the time comes, but also to increase case life.

What are the guys running 2500+ getting for case life?

That was long and I’ll be back for more but curious on some ideas and comments. I feel like I’ve been digging into forums for a week straight on just these topics

I have no idea about actual pressure, just pressure signs. I guess that's my disclaimer if anyone is interested in my loads.

I was using CFE223 for my Whelen loads but wanted to go another route because from my experience the CFE223 is VERY temp sensitive. So based on the famous (infamous) Speer 35 Whelen data I decided to try 2000-MR. It is magic stuff in both of my .35 Whelen rifles.

I worked up loads with the 250gr Hot-Cor and 250gr Oryx that I wanted to be more or less interchangeable depending on what I was shooting at. Here are my loads, the only difference between the Hot-Cor and Oryx loads is powder weight:

Norma .35 Whelen Brass
WLRM Primers
COL 3.337
Alliant 2000-MR Powder
2630FPS
ORYX 65.7gr
Hot-Cor 64.9gr

I could have pushed the Hot-Cor further. This was all I could get from the Oryx load without noticeable pressure signs. Both loads shoot under an inch in my Win Mod 70 and my CVA Scout.

 

[45-70guy]

Thanks for the detailed experience, when you noticed that CFE223 was temp sensitive, just how bad was your testing when seeing it?

Being a hunter and not a long range shooter my shots being 300 yards and in.
9 times out of ten my shots are under 100 actually BUT I do like to reload and make the best ammo I can even if it’s not applicable to my situation, the temp sensitivity does bother me and since I have not been able to use this load in the summer yet I don’t have that data for my personal rifle.

I have had IMR 4198 give me an additional 100 FPS in the summer ( 80 degrees) compared to when it’s 30 degrees without a change in POI just because my ranges are close. I’m sure out at 600 or 800 yards it would start to be very noticeable but I doubt I’ll ever be shooting that far in my life.

The reason I went to cfe223 to begin with was to get my 250’s into the 2400 FPS range as varget at a max load was not.

 

[Deepfork]

I might be over reacting on the CFE223 temp sensitivity. I had a issue I probably created that scared me. I was shooting a CFE223 load I had settled on, had already shot it 60-70 times with good results both consistency and accuracy. It was a near max load. I left my shooting bag on the bench to get some lunch. Came back in about a hour and resumed. Temp was in the low 80s but the bag was in direct sun. Anyway, the first shot was over 100fps faster than my average. Bolt was sticky and I had a blown primer! I decided I must have over charged that case and like a dumbass I shot again. Same results. I chose to blame the powder instead of my own missteps and started working with 2000-MR. I have to say for me with the heavier bullets is has out performed the CFE223.

 

[mdwest]

Ive loaded 200gr Barnes TTSX, 225 gr Nosler Partitions, and 250gr Nosler Partitions in my 35 Whelen, all using IMR 4064..

the 200gr loads get right at 2700 FPS.. 225gr gets right at 2600 fps.. and the 250gr loads are just barely under 2500 fps (2490 IIRC?)..

No problems at all with those loads.. shot from a sporter M98 with a 24" barrel.. all are accurate.. all cycle well.. no pressure signs, etc..etc..

My wife took a tank of an eland with the 225gr partitions out of her whelen, with a fairly difficult shot (steep incline, through a small window of bush, at about 235 meters IIRC)..

I have complete confidence in those loads for anything that walks the earth shy of DG.. and in a pinch I am sure the 250gr load would do ok a buff, and I'd bet the 200gr would do superbly on cats..

 

[Ruraldoc]

I have used the 225 grain Partition on deer.

It exited without tearing up a lot of meat.

Not surprised that it worked on a big eland.

I had a Zimbabwe PH tell me that it would work on Buffalo because of his experience with a 350 Rigby.

 

[45-70guy]

Thanks again guys for the info.

When running 4064 IMR “max” at 54 grains i was In the 2200 FPS range

H4895 after 52 grains my groups were horrible, and velocities were 2300’s

Varget at just under max I was 2300’s and awesome dime size groups.

My goal was to run the 250’s at 2400 out of this 22” barrel which the cfe223 does accomplish with even a midrange load, 61 grains. And groups are under an inch, but I will need to test these when it’s 80 out this summer to confirm the temp sensitivity.

It seems 2400 FPS has been the go to for a long time that has worked for ages but I’m just gathering what most guys realistically have run and have taken game with to add to the confirmation.
Thanks guys I love this caliber and options, I have a stash or hornady RN 250’s I’ll work with next and TTSX 225’s after that.

 

[Ruraldoc]

I used IMR 4064 in my 22 inch barrel Remington 700 Classic and worked up to 2600 fps with the 225 grain Nosler Partition.

Used the same powder and bullet to do the same thing in a 22 inch barrel Ruger M77 in 350 Remington Magnum.

 

[Shootist43]

I've been using Norma brass and IMR 4064 with 225 Gr. Barnes TSX bullets. Velocity is 2730 FPS out of my 23 & 1/2" barrel. Accuracy in both my rifle as well as my son's is under an inch. I bought an 8 lb. keg of CFE 223 but so far haven't tried it out. My range brass has been reloaded four or five times without issue (including trimming.) I use new brass when hunting.

 

[45-70guy]

by the looks of it the 225 seems to be more common with you guys. Barnes being considerably more rugged than a cup and core, I don’t want anyone to give exact load data but are you guys noticing your loads at a max charge?
4064 did amazing groups in my 22” and there was room to spare but if I go by the “book” with a max charge I was unfortunately very short of listed velocities

 

[CBH Australia]

Awaiting Bob answer, it should be good.

Pick me, I know the answer.

Use CFE223 and load the Whelen to "Full Potential"

 

[45-70guy]

Pick me, I know the answer.

Use CFE223 and load the Whelen to "Full Potential"

I feel full potential could be variable, I’m not sure on Bob’s location or normal temps but ours range from 0-80 as far as when I’m shooting, and ranges as far as hunting 100 yards and in.
Though full potential is fun I do appreciate the variable speeds people are giving to compare to my own situation up here in the north.

 

[CBH Australia]

I feel full potential could be variable, I’m not sure on Bob’s location or normal temps but ours range from 0-80 as far as when I’m shooting, and ranges as far as hunting 100 yards and in.
Though full potential is fun I do appreciate the variable speeds people are giving to compare to my own situation up here in the north.

Just taking the P!ss out of Bob. He's probably pondering the merits of a .243

Yes full potential is relevant to your rifle and climate . Bob's full potential for his rifle vs yours may well be different but I think in general what he is saying is take advantage of the full potential of the cartridge, rifle and load.

When I wrote "Full Potential" I was quoting Bob as he uses the term frequently. Bob is a .35Whelen fanatic and he says loaded to "Full Potential" he feels the Whelen is adequate for Scrub Bull and Buffalo. He plans to test this. Should it fail I guess the big b@stard will have to stare it down like Mick Dundee did.

 

[45-70guy]

I see what your saying, I’ve actually haven’t had to go “full potential” to accomplish what I’ve needed, In the last 15 short years of my life I’ve been using a 45/70 hand loaded to a below full potential load but has yet to ever fail, cast Bullets being my main choice but I started with premium Bullets a few years ago just to spice things up.
As I know there’s 50/50 on agreement on whether this is suitable for a Cape buffalo I do have a few Conrad’s who have taken Cape buffalo with the same setup.

Not that it’s ideal but it was done multiple times and without disaster, but the distance, shot placement, and bullet construction obviously help tremendously.

Though those cast Bullets at a .458” even without a mushroom do put a good hole compared to if those 30’s fail to from a lack of velocity and or construction failure I always looked at it.

From the velocities that are the norm with the whelen it looks like some guys don’t care to run premium Bullets, though the ttsx looms to be a very popular one.
I have some north forks also in 250 and 225 to test once I get some good base data for this rifle

 

[michael458]

I have seen a few guys running CFE223 do get impressive velocity, and my Maine concern now is running 250g bullets. Specifically Speer hot cores, hornady RN, and oryx. All in a 22” barrel Remington 700.

This may or may not help you a lot, but it might give you some direction and ideas. My good friend @jwp475 is also a 35 Whelen fan. Last year he was working on some loads and getting some serious results using Power Pro ? I have Var with it, and not a powder I use.... and a couple of loads of CFE 223.......

I have one of those 22 inch Remington 700s. I had it for many many years, probably early 1990s ...... I had not shot it in 25 years, gave it to my son, and he never used it either. JWP was very interested in what his loads were doing, since they seemed to be out performing much of the data from years gone by. Like you, back in the 1990s if you were doing 2400 fps with a 250 in the 35, you were doing top end. I had some loads from 1998 and 1999 left over using 250 Nosler and 53/RL 15 around 2400 fps.

I told JWP I would hook up a strain gage on my Remington and we could test his loads, so I did so.

Now, so you know, I have the ability to test pressures here, I have two Gen 1 Pressure Trace Units and a Gen II Pressure trace from RSI. In addition to those, I run a Oehler System 83 as well.

Remember, regardless of everything, No Pressure Data is 100% Absolute. I much prefer to use real rifles and strain gages as opposed to Pressure Guns. I think the data is more realistic.... Perhaps if you were testing ammunition for manufacture, then maybe a pressure gun...... but for hunters/shooters I like real rifles, real chambers, barrels and so forth........... I have been working with and testing pressures for over 25 years now. But, make no mistake, my rifle is not your rifle, and can produce different results. Same with all components, brass, bullets, primers and most of all powders............. always be smart, and start below what you see, especially what you see on the web regardless of source.

So, got the strain gage attached to the gun, and proceeded to test some old Factory Remington ammo to get a base point. As you can see from that data, I had input the WRONG inside diameter for the chamber. I noticed an issue, as the pressure was just lower than what I had anticipated and investigated further, and corrected the meaurement to .458. Then tested two runs to make sure all was good to go.

Then I tested some ammo I had left over from 1998 and 1999 using RL 15. Once everything checked out JWP sent samples of his loads for me to look at.

A couple of points, Velocity was taken with LabRadar and PACT Chronograph as backup, data listed for both.

The 200 Hornady load with 66/PowProVar was over max pressure at 63900 PSI, marked in RED is something I do not like......... Our pressure equipment is telling us pressure is too high, and as you see so is the rifle with heavy bolt lift noted.

There are a couple of loads that I did not like the Extreme Spreads with the Pressure, noted in red, and they also correlate with the velocity extreme spreads. These are loads that need to be investigated further to determine what the issue is, and if it can be improved upon. This could be any number of things, JWP sent different brass for one thing, this could be a sensitive point with CFE 223? It might be as simple as dropping one grain down? Change of primers? Who knows? It was not investigated further.

Looking at the data, it most certainly appears that CFE 223 is well worth the effort to take a close look at..........

Data is shown below;

 

[45-70guy]

That’s awesome I appreciate that as a reference.
so I guess my next question is what is accepted as the operating “pressure” for 35 whelen? I see in your RED which is what you did not like it’s over 63,000.

Lee 2nd addition does show loads right around 60,000 in there higher loads.

Speer claims 52,000.

I’m curious what guys who do have access to gather this data feel is the realistic number for them.

Currently I have run 58-64 grain loads through my rifle, none had any pressure signs or heavy bolt lift, and only once I got to 64g did I get a measurement of 0.0003” over any factory loads I used for the data and the midrange loads of CFE223.

Actually the 58g load was still in the 0.473’s on the pressure ring. All of this being just for reference as I can’t hold that one measurement to a specific pressure, but using all measurements as a guide to what’s happening.

Currently I went back to 61g which is giving me just over 2400 FPS and is fine for anything I’m doing here, but also I like to compare say my loads to others as far as knowing ok I’m below the realistic max by a good amount or I’m pretty close to what people feel is acceptable.

This giving me a small margin of error to adjust if I change primers or brass or temperature, which ill need to compare this summer.

Thanks again guys this stuff is very helpful.

 

[Deepfork]

With CFE 223 I worked up to 64.3gr for 2584fps. I tried 64.8gr got 2598fps but was getting slightly flattened primers.

With Alliant 2000-MR I worked up to 65.8gr at 2672fps. I settled on 64.9gr at 2630, more accurate and easier on my brass.

 

[michael458]

so I guess my next question is what is accepted as the operating “pressure” for 35 whelen? I see in your RED which is what you did not like it’s over 63,000.

Excellent question, most say that you could go to 62000 PSI without having issues, and that may be correct, personally I would rather have the max at 60000 PSI. But, lets think about this, if you have a really good bullet terminally speaking, moving along at a velocity that is accurate and enough for that particular bullet to perform well, and if it is only 55000 - 58000, that is even better, why exceed that to try for an extra few fps? Many times, I have been very happy at 58000 PSI or so, and gives you lots of room for variables that can creep in.

It sounds like you have done just that with your loads.......

I would not be happy with the 250 gr bullet and the load I tested with the large Extreme Spread in both pressures and fps. I would want to tweak that, do more tests and get rid of the large ES.

I think if I were shooting 35 Whelen today, I would invest in some of the new bullet tech to enhance the cartridge instead of trying to hit max pressures and velocity.......... JWP has been working with incredible success with the Hammers, there are others from CEB that would also work well. Its also hard to go wrong with the lighter Barnes TSX bullets if you stay more conventional.

With CFE 223 I worked up to 64.3gr for 2584fps. I tried 64.8gr got 2598fps but was getting slightly flattened primers.

Yes, exactly why I would want to retest the load JWP sent with 250s at 64/CFE 223. Not sure why or how I got that low end reading, I would bet that it is more to the upper ends of pressure. The 225 gr load he sent did very well......with close ES and very low pressures, which could go up from there without issue. with 64.3 at 2584 and 64.8 at 2598, that is basically no gain, and for sure upper end of pressure in that gun at least.

For what I would do with a .358 I would look hard at 225 and less I think........... ...........