Reloading can be dangerous and scary if you don't do it right.

[GuttormG]

He learned via the sticky bolt school of reloading.

It is very unclear what he did learn...

 

[Huvius]

Why would QL give such differing powder weights for the Hornady (37gr) and the Woodleigh (34.5gr) when they are the same weight and almost the same ogive/nose profile?

 

[MS 9x56]

After rereading my post I see how it could have been taken that way. That was not my intention. I have enjoyed Saint panzers posts in the past. Since he didn’t share his experience level in reloading I may have made a poor assumption. My apologies Saintpanzer if I offended you. Again that was not my intention. You were fortunate that a sticky bolt was the only issue. Thank you for sharing.

 

[shootist~]

It is very unclear what he did learn...

Hopefully to never use that bullet OR that powder again for that caliber - Unless it becomes perfectly clear the issue was something else entirely.

On more than one occasion I've found a wrong weight bullet mixed in with a box. Usually seen when buying "seconds". Not very likely to be this, however.

Another time long ago when using a balance beam I mis-read where I meant to set it. Caught the problem before I went too far, fortunately.

Another extremely unlikely scenario is a wrong diameter bullet being loaded. (Again, not likely, but it never hurts to check the diameter of one or two from the first box of a new lot.)

These days I use two electronic scales for most rifle loads - in part, to make me look twice.
The first being the scale in the RCBS Chargemaster.
That charge is then dumped into another powder pan sitting on a different good quality electronic scale, and trickle adjusted or dumped if needed.
(The first pan going back to the Chargemaster so it can immediately start the process again.)
Not saying this is "the" way to do things, btw.

 

[SaintPanzer]

From this German manual;

View attachment 675522View attachment 675523

Helpful, thank you.

 

[SaintPanzer]

So many misinformed assumptions were made in the OP’s post that the outcome was almost assured. My best advise would be to stick with commercial ammo as reloading is not a safe hobby for you.

Which assumptions? The one that a Woodleigh 80B would be appropriate, and then contacting Woodleigh to be sure? The one that I should contact VV to see what they said would be correct and then continuing after they recommended N160 as the correct powder? The one that case length should be trimmed correctly and that they were individually measured? The one that COAL should be checked both for measurement to the lands as well as fitting in the magazine? How about the one that before going in blindly, checking known loads for powders I can't find and comparing them to proposed loads? I mean, the assumption there was to check known against unknown, to find out if QL was steering down a poor path. I mean, I don't want to be offended, I just want to know where I went wrong.

My experience is mostly with .30-06, And to "reading books" you can also add my Deutscher Pulverschein. I'm not completely untrained. This is going in a new direction, specifically for an "obsolete" cartridge. Saying "give up", without saying why comes across as "I have all the answers, and you will not be let into the club".

 

[Hififile324]

There is no increase in velocity worth your safety!

I have reloaded since 1965, owned a custom ammo business, and have all of my fingers and eyesight!

I continually see reloaders trying to eek out that extra 25 fps, by increasing the powder. Pressure spikes are not linear, and can happen with 10th's of a grain. What is safe on a cold 40 degree morning, might be a catastrophic event on a 95 degree day. Especially if the chamber is hot from firing and the cartridge is in there just cooking away.

I'm all for going "BY THE BOOK", use starting loads and work up. Keep careful notes, and document observations, temperature, velocity. Stay safe!

No Kudu will ever know the difference of an extra 75fps!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@SaintPanzer,

Sorry if I missed it, but did you load up more than one of the rounds at 34.8gr of powder? If so, I presume you stopped shooting and plan to if you haven't already to pull those bullets and remeasure the charge.

If you've already done this, what were the results? I'm wondering if you didn't somehow get a bit more than intended. I'm sure you didn't double charge them as you would've had powder spilling as it would completely fill the case.

My bigger picture view is regarding the 0.3 increase from 34.5 to 34.8 grains. While that doesn't seem like much, on a percentage basis that's nearly a full 1% increase in charge weight. Your results tell me that at 34.5gr you were at or had already crossed into the danger zone. And as noted in a previous post, pressure increases exponentially.

I've personally never used QL and if I did, it would only be to find a safe starting load. Armed with that and hopefully some information that tells me where the typical max load is, I'd then increment slowly to find the max load for my rifle which can vary of course from rifle to rifle in the same caliber.

I typically am incrementing 0.5gr steps, but this is with rifles where the loads are at least in the 60gr region or more, so a bit less than 1% increments. And even smaller than that if I know I'm close to the max load number.

Also when I find a load that is optimized for accuracy, I like to see that I've got at least a 0.5gr margin above that which still shoots safely in my rifle. If so, that tells me there is some room for error and I have if you will headroom before I cross into the danger zone.

Thus far in my hand loading experience that has only come into play once. It was developing a load for 250gr North Fork softs in my .375HH. I was able to get matching accuracy and velocity loads with Varget and H4895. However, when I went up a 0.5gr in the Varget load, the bolt was a little sticky, but not with the H4895 load. So that H4895 load is what I've stuck with

I don't know if this helps, but my long winded reply is intended to say that with this smaller cartridge, smaller increments may be called for.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Hopefully to never use that bullet OR that powder again for that caliber - Unless it becomes perfectly clear the issue was something else entirely.

On more than one occasion I've found a wrong weight bullet mixed in with a box. Usually seen when buying "seconds". Not very likely to be this, however.

Another time long ago when using a balance beam I mis-read where I meant to set it. Caught the problem before I went too far, fortunately.

Another extremely unlikely scenario is a wrong diameter bullet being loaded. (Again, not likely, but it never hurts to check the diameter of one or two from the first box of a new lot.)

These days I use two electronic scales for most rifle loads - in part, to make me look twice.
The first being the scale in the RCBS Chargemaster.
That charge is then dumped into another powder pan sitting on a different good quality electronic scale, and trickle adjusted or dumped if needed.
(The first pan going back to the Chargemaster so it can immediately start the process again.)
Not saying this is "the" way to do things, btw.

That bullet or that powder. Yes, that's the direction I'm leading because that bullet seems to not be working correctly. Too bad, because they are really good bullets.

The problem is, the tech guys at VV recommended that powder, and the guys at Woodleigh also said it should work. Going back to my notes, here's the email I received from Woodleigh:

Hi Don,
It should be safe to substitute the Hornady load for our 160 gr. I have a
listing of 37.5 gr H4350 for 2100 fps, this powder is faster burning than
N160, so similar charges of N160 would be quite a safe starting load.

Signature line of that email redacted because I didn't ask him if I could share.

Email from VV:

I'm afraid we have no data for the 6.5x54MS that we've worked up in our lab. I did find one source that listed a charge of N160 with the Hornady 160 grain round nose, starting at 37.0 grains and reaching maximum at 40.0 grains. According to the chart, it should give a starting velocity of about 2,000 fps, working up to about 2,200 fps at the top load. As I said, this isn't data that we (Lapua or Vihtavuori) worked up ourselves, but it may be a good place to start. As for the selection of N160, it's ideally suited to this combination, and would have been the choice I made as well.

In both cases I went below the minimums mentioned above. My reason for this was trying to match the pressure curve from QL. I was prepared to deal with a squib. Overpressure was a concern, I think for good reason.


I absolutely agree that misreading a balance beam could be an issue. I'll go back to my procedures, but I don't think I was too far off on this one. When i pull the powder from the remaining loads, I'm going to measure that, and that should tell me if I bumped it a bit, without realizing it. The problem with the electric scales is they more easily lose calibration/zero. If I had a chargemaster, etc. I'd double check on the analog anyway.

My "procedure" for scale:
I actually mark each piece of brass with the load, using a fine point Sharpie. This is especially done for "progressive" loads (i.e. working up to a safe max) or for finding Optimal Charge Weight. My experience with OCW brought my .30-06 from a 1.25 MOA to 0.75 MOA, while staying well below max load.

Check my "paper" (book, listing, reloading app provided by the manufacturer, whichever).
Match paper to brass (Sharpie Load).
Match load to scale. Actually say weight out loud, because saying it is better than thinking it.
Check scale again. Add powder.
Once appropriate powder is trickled in, add powder to case. Read load off case.
Compare that number to scale to ensure it is correct.
If making a progressive load, step scale to next load.

Once the bullet is seated, I load them in my bullet case in order, so at the range I can go one at a time, in order. I also had my spreadsheet to record velocities for each load, and compare the sharpie marks on the case to the next load on the spreadsheet.


I did a "sample check" of the bullets, both weighing them and checking diameter. I'll admit I should have checked more than 2 or 3 of the 50, but these weren't "seconds", and Woodleigh has a reputation for quality.

Those are the things I did to get to this point. I contacted the manufacturers of both the bullets and the powders for their recommendations. I compared both to a software program, just to be sure. I weighed everything, checked for jam, checked for COAL, checked for case length. If I left anything out, I want to be enlightened.

 

[SaintPanzer]

It is very unclear what he did learn...

Well, for starters, I learned not to share details of experiences in order to try and learn.

 

[SaintPanzer]

There is no increase in velocity worth your safety!

I have reloaded since 1965, owned a custom ammo business, and have all of my fingers and eyesight!

I continually see reloaders trying to eek out that extra 25 fps, by increasing the powder. Pressure spikes are not linear, and can happen with 10th's of a grain. What is safe on a cold 40 degree morning, might be a catastrophic event on a 95 degree day. Especially if the chamber is hot from firing and the cartridge is in there just cooking away.

I'm all for going "BY THE BOOK", use starting loads and work up. Keep careful notes, and document observations, temperature, velocity. Stay safe!

No Kudu will ever know the difference of an extra 75fps!

Yes, I am absolutely not trying to chase velocity.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Well, for starters, I learned not to share details of experiences in order to try and learn.

I for one extend you kudos for sharing the experience if for no other reason that it provides learning for myself and others who read this thread.

 

[SaintPanzer]

@SaintPanzer,

Sorry if I missed it, but did you load up more than one of the rounds at 34.8gr of powder? If so, I presume you stopped shooting and plan to if you haven't already to pull those bullets and remeasure the charge.

If you've already done this, what were the results? I'm wondering if you didn't somehow get a bit more than intended. I'm sure you didn't double charge them as you would've had powder spilling as it would completely fill the case.

My bigger picture view is regarding the 0.3 increase from 34.5 to 34.8 grains. While that doesn't seem like much, on a percentage basis that's nearly a full 1% increase in charge weight. Your results tell me that at 34.5gr you were at or had already crossed into the danger zone. And as noted in a previous post, pressure increases exponentially.

I've personally never used QL and if I did, it would only be to find a safe starting load. Armed with that and hopefully some information that tells me where the typical max load is, I'd then increment slowly to find the max load for my rifle which can vary of course from rifle to rifle in the same caliber.

I typically am incrementing 0.5gr steps, but this is with rifles where the loads are at least in the 60gr region or more, so a bit less than 1% increments. And even smaller than that if I know I'm close to the max load number.

Also when I find a load that is optimized for accuracy, I like to see that I've got at least a 0.5gr margin above that which still shoots safely in my rifle. If so, that tells me there is some room for error and I have if you will headroom before I cross into the danger zone.

Thus far in my hand loading experience that has only come into play once. It was developing a load for 250gr North Fork softs in my .375HH. I was able to get matching accuracy and velocity loads with Varget and H4895. However, when I went up a 0.5gr in the Varget load, the bolt was a little sticky, but not with the H4895 load. So that H4895 load is what I've stuck with

I don't know if this helps, but my long winded reply is intended to say that with this smaller cartridge, smaller increments may be called for.

No, I did not load more than one round at that level. I have more that are higher, those are the ones I'm going to pull bullets and measure what's there.

Yes, 1% increase. Normally I go no more than 0.2 of a grain, but I thought I had a little more room here before I hit max. I was expecting max to be around 37 grains, based on conversations with the tech support people, but I think you're right: 34.5 is max for this combination.

 

[SaintPanzer]

One thing I did notice, after reviewing notes. VV Tech support said 37 grains of N160 with the Hornady bullet should give about 2000 fps, my Labradar recorded 1930. Ambient temp was about 45 degrees F, so that tracks.

What's not tracking is Woodleigh also indicating 37.5 as a safe load. There's my discrepancy.

 

[WyoBull]

Great post @SaintPanzer! I have been an avid reloader for 45+ years and sometimes things happen that cannot be easily explained. A .3 grain increase in. 17 REM is a lot greater than in a larger caliber.
Sharing your experience may not yield an answer as to what happened but it is important that you did share it as we have a lot of very experienced hand loaders on this forum.
Your experience could have been the result of any one of the 4 components, powder, primer, case or bullet.
If it were me I would closely check all of the components, back off your powder increase and shoot it again. That is what I would do but it all depends on your confidence level.
Keep us posted.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Why would QL give such differing powder weights for the Hornady (37gr) and the Woodleigh (34.5gr) when they are the same weight and almost the same ogive/nose profile?

Good question. To clarify:
37g with Hornady was the max. I started at 34.5 with the Hornady and stopped at 37.
34.5 with Woodleigh was my start. It ended at 34.8.

No idea why 34.5 grains pumped out the Hornady at below 2000 fps, but the Woodleigh at 2200 fps.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

One thing I did notice, after reviewing notes. VV Tech support said 37 grains of N160 with the Hornady bullet should give about 2000 fps, my Labradar recorded 1930. Ambient temp was about 45 degrees F, so that tracks.

What's not tracking is Woodleigh also indicating 37.5 as a safe load. There's my discrepancy.

I can't help but wonder if a lack of experience with this 6.5 is coming into play. Not so much yours, but of those that you'd think would be a bit more in the know (VV and Woodleigh). I say that as checking two sources, my Swift Manual and Nosler's online loading site, I don't see any information for the 6.5x54MS, only for the 6.5x55 Swedish.

For whatever it's worth, Nosler lists a starting load for the 6.5x55 for a 140gr bullet at 37.0gr of N160, max at 41.0gr. Now shrink that cartridge by 1mm and jump up to 160gr bullet, the starting load I would have to think would be WELL under 37gr and the max load also WELL under 41gr.

Having read the Nosler info, your unfortunate results don't seem so surprising.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Great post @SaintPanzer! I have been an avid reloader for 45+ years and sometimes things happen that cannot be easily explained. A .3 grain increase in. 17 REM is a lot greater than in a larger caliber.
Sharing your experience may not yield an answer as to what happened but it is important that you did share it as we have a lot of very experienced hand loaders on this forum.
Your experience could have been the result of any one of the 4 components, powder, primer, case or bullet.
If it were me I would closely check all of the components, back off your powder increase and shoot it again. That is what I would do but it all depends on your confidence level.
Keep us posted.

Thanks.

I am re-checking components. Confidence level goes up and down daily. The experiences bring it down, reviewing of my notes/procedures brings it up again.

What's really confusing me at this point is this:

Both VV and Woodleigh have stated using the Hornady load (37 min, 40 max) "should be safe". This is not matching what I've seen. I'm really starting to wonder it a harder bullet is making that much of a difference.

 

[SaintPanzer]

I can't help but wonder if a lack of experience with this 6.5 is coming into play. Not so much yours, but of those that you'd think would be a bit more in the know (VV and Woodleigh). I say that as checking two sources, my Swift Manual and Nosler's online loading site, I don't see any information for the 6.5x54MS, only for the 6.5x55 Swedish.

For whatever it's worth, Nosler lists a starting load for the 6.5x55 for a 140gr bullet at 37.0gr of N160, max at 41.0gr. Now shrink that cartridge by 1mm and jump up to 160gr bullet, the starting load I would have to think would be WELL under 37gr and the max load also WELL under 41gr.

Having read the Nosler info, your unfortunate results don't seem so surprising.

Thanks. I don't think you can really compare the two 6.5mm rounds. The Swedish case is much larger than the Mannlicher. The Swede comes in at 57.9 grains of H2O capacity, the Mannlicher as only 44.5. The Swede is much larger in diameter as well as length.

Also, to be clear for all, the 160 grain RNSP bullet is the original MS design. While Norma eventually developed a 140 grain spitzer, many of the older rifles have a little difficulty with this in the rotary magazine.

My Hornady manual does list the MS round, as does the Woodleigh.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Thanks.

I am re-checking components. Confidence level goes up and down daily. The experiences bring it down, reviewing of my notes/procedures brings it up again.

What's really confusing me at this point is this:

Both VV and Woodleigh have stated using the Hornady load (37 min, 40 max) "should be safe". This is not matching what I've seen. I'm really starting to wonder it a harder bullet is making that much of a difference.

Sorry to be a post hog, but the more I dive into it, the more I doubt that 37/40 min max for a 160gr bullet in your caliber. This is assuming the case for a 6.5x54MS is smaller than the 6.5x55 Swedish.

If you go to the Nosler loading site and compare the min/max loads for the 6.5x55 for a 120gr versus a 140gr bullet and how it drops for N160 and again assuming a smaller case, that 37/40 min/max for a 160gr bullet does not make sense to me.

Factor in variances for your rifle and again your results don't seem surprising.