US Military Selects New Rifle and Ammunition

[rookhawk]

Really interesting article about the contract award granted to SIG Sauer for the next generation of military rifles. I’m not a tactical guy so the rifle didn’t catch my attention much, but the ammunition is called .277 Fury aka 6.8x51mm. The craziest thing is the ammunition is comprised of a stainless base, a locking washer, and a brass body to handle a pressure of 80,000psi. They claim they do this to launch a 135gr projectile at 3000fps from a 16” barrel.

.277 Fury - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

ZeroHedge

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[lockingblock]

They invented a super expensive 270 Winchester with double the chamber pressure and no additional velocity…


Wow.

 

[HuntingGold]

What would it do with a 24" barrel?

 

[rookhawk]

What would it do with a 24" barrel?

Depending on powder type, somewhere between nothing at all and a lot. Rule of thumb is 25fps per inch. If that applied 8”x25fps=200fps, so it would be a 135gr bullet going 3200fps. Not sure what would be so great about that, lots of calibers do that. But I guess if it can handle 80,000psi there is probably a powder out there that would be able to push it to 4000fps over a 24” barrel I would think?

 

[Red Leg]

They invented a super expensive 270 Winchester with double the chamber pressure and no additional velocity…


Wow.

Actually it is a pretty big deal. They get, as you say, a .270 in a round 2/3’s the size, which has a very direct bearing on the basic load a soldier can carry. It also means the battle “rifle” is almost half the size of such a weapon had it been built around a .270. It is, of course the big advantage the .308 had over the ‘06 back in the day when replacing the ‘06, but this time in a meaningfully smaller package than a FN FAL or M14. And of course the heavier bullet at such velocity offers enormous potential advantages in combat over a 5.56. Wow indeed.

 

[Hunter4752001]

I've read that part of the concept was that in order to get the green tick of woke approval, the projectile would be similar to the 5.56 EPR ie copper shaft and sharp steel tip, no lead components. This results in a fairly long projectile taking up more room in the case than a lead core one of the same weight. Add to this the velocity requirement vs barrel length so its likely that the chamber throat will be quite long. Hate to think of how much extra complication the stainless base, locking washer and projectile design adds to on going costs. It won't be cheap. Also a big issue as to how many other manufacturers could gear up to produce the cartridge if a defence emergency needed full mobilization.

 

[CoElkHunter]

From Wikipedia: “The cartridge (.277 Fury) uses the same case length and diameter as the .308”. Reinventing the wheel? Maybe just neck down the .308 and save a few billion dollars?

 

[Scott CWO]

N

They invented a super expensive 270 Winchester with double the chamber pressure and no additional velocity…


Wow.

Not exactly. Try to get 3000fps out of a .270 Winchester with a 16” barrel. I dare ya. Lol.

 

[Red Leg]

From Wikipedia: “The cartridge (.277 Fury) uses the same case length and diameter as the .308”. Reinventing the wheel? Maybe just neck down the .308 and save a few billion dollars?

Weapon size is the issue. We have done a lot of urban combat over the last couple of decades. We will do even more in the future (that whole exploding population thing). It is why the M4 has become standard rather than rifle length options. This solves battle rifle velocity needs in a M4 package. Pretty awesome.

With respect to cartridge production, I assume it is indeed more complicated. But like most things, once in production, costs plummet. Like most military developments, I would assume there also will be a growing civilian demand further increasing the production base.

 

[CoElkHunter]

N

Not exactly. Try to get 3000fps out of a .270 Winchester with a 16” barrel. I dare ya. Lol.

Bob @Bob Nelson 35Whelen could! LOL

 

[CoElkHunter]

Weapon size is the issue. We have done a lot of urban combat over the last couple of decades. We will do even more in the future. It is why the M4 has become standard rather than rifle length options. This solves battle rifle velocity needs in a M4 package. Pretty awesome.

With respect to cartridge production, I assume it is indeed more complicated. But, like most things once, once in production costs plummet. Like most military developments, I would assume there will also be a growing civilian demand further increasing the production base.

Once again, thanks for your military expertise! I was only thinking about the cartridge itself and not about the weapon platform? As a side note on the cartridge, I wonder how the primers stay intact with that extreme operating pressure?

 

[Hunter4752001]

In respect of cartridge length, the 6.8x51 probably bears more resemblance to an overloaded 7mm-08 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor than to the 270 Win. From what I've read, Lake City is having to build a new facility to produce the cartridge because standard cartridge making machines can't produce the design.

About 2 years ago there was an announcement that US SOCOM and DHS had adopted the 6.5 Creedmoor for their sniper rifles, designated marksmen rifle and LMG. If the US goes ahead with the 6.8x51I hope they make sure the 6.5s are converted to 6.8s. The similarity of the cartridge dimensions could lead easily lead to high pressure 6.8 rounds being mistaken for 6.5 in the heat of a battlefield resupply.

 

[Red Leg]

And these acquisitions need to prove themselves over time as well. The award is for initial low rate production (why only 29k in the initial buy). Selected units will be issued the weapon and they will use it in the field for a year to 18 months before a full rate production award.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Whatever happened to the latest and greatest white polycarbonate cartridge cases which were supposed to revolutionize our military’s ammo requirements? I haven’t read anything recently about them. Guess it’s now on to this new three piece cartridge case with no polycarbonate involved?

 

[Red Leg]

The public often gets confused between an advertised capability and an actual acquisition. The Army will create a ”requirement” and solicit offerings. That process typically will generate a number of ways to meet the requirement. Often a company’s offering will be accompanied by an advertising effort to potentially influence the acquisition process. Caseless ammunition seems to pop up every decade or so among other ideas. If the Army is doing its job, it will ignore that noise (and political pressure) and determine the best solution through rigorous comparative trials. Normally, usually, most of the time we get it right.

 

[BeeMaa]

The public often gets confused between an advertised capability and an actual acquisition. The Army will create a ”requirement” and solicit offerings. That process typically will generate a number of ways to meet the requirement. Often a company’s offering will be accompanied by an advertising effort to potentially influence the acquisition process. Caseless ammunition seems to pop up every decade or so among other ideas. If the Army is doing its job, it will ignore that noise (and political pressure) and determine the best solution through rigorous comparative trials. Normally, usually, most of the time we get it right.

The Army is doing it in the correct manner. Moving at a glacial pace ensures that (almost) every possible problem is worked out in the trials. This is why such reverence is given to something that has been Army approved when it comes to weapons...everyone know the arduous process it takes to get there.

Let's not forget the other branches of the US armed forces who I can assure you are keeping an eye on what the Army is doing. Approval of one of these branches doesn't instantly mean it will be adopted across the board. Each branch will conduct further testing (at the same glacial pace) in their own conditions to see if it works for them. Universal acceptance is tough.

 

[shark_za]

This is so silly, just go with the 6.5 Grendel and be done with it.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

A 16 inch barrel and 80,000 psi might cause hearing loss issues to friend and foe alike. Photo of this new weapon appears to show a can on the end of the barrel, which makes sense except for the added length and weight. There's no free lunch in the ballistic world.

Waiting for @Bob Nelson 35Whelen to chime in on how the 35 Whelen should have been selected

 

[R.M.C.]

Wonderful. Our tax dollars at work lol

 

[Jfet]

…and now you know what the conversations were like when the US Army went from muzzle loader to breach loader.