450/400 3" question

If this has been addressed in another thread, I can't find it.

I think my oldest son will be in the market for a double soon, and my thought is to steer him to this cartridge, at least for his first bite at the double apple.

This isn't considered a stopper, is it? The biggest rifle he's ever shot is a 9.3x62, but at 45 - 50 ft lbs of recoil, should be a nice break-in to the world of big guns, milder even than 416 or 404 Jeff.

A 400 gr bullet regulated at 2050 seems to be in the same ball park on KE as 375 H&H and 9.3x62 - around 3700 ft lbs, although obviously bigger frontal area than .375 or .366

It's a really nice cartridge IMO, Use to have one in a Heym, now have one in a Westley Richards.

I don't konw what exactly is considered a stopper, but it is a lot nicer to shoot than my 450's and 470. Then my 500's are the next jump.

If a guy was mostly going for just hunt Buffalo an occasional elephant I think its a fine caliber. I would ask to meet up with a forum member in your area for him to shoot some various calibers and see.

Also 2150 FPS is the historic velocity for a 400 grain bullet in this cartdrige.

I have a falling block 450/400, not a double, but yea I think you have the right of it.

The 450-400 is a good 100yard and in dg hunting caliber, and some newer ammunition is closer to 2100/2150 fps (Hornady specifically). What gives it some real killing power is the slightly narrower bore of .410" with a 400gr bullet this gives you an SD of .34 so the penetration on them is excellent.

However, they are lower energy as you noted above, and this is both good and bad, good in that they are easy on the shoulder, bad in that it is not a true stopper.
Were I to define it, I would say the "stoppers" start around .458 and go up from there.

I also have a 500ne in a falling block, and while that is a true stopper, I would MUCH rather spend a range day shooting the 450/400.

The age old adage of: "powerful misses don't kill" is why the 450/400 is so nice, it has all the killing power you need, but stops short of getting in the way of accuracy due to recoil.

PM sent.

sgt_zim said:

If this has been addressed in another thread, I can't find it.

I think my oldest son will be in the market for a double soon, and my thought is to steer him to this cartridge, at least for his first bite at the double apple.

This isn't considered a stopper, is it? The biggest rifle he's ever shot is a 9.3x62, but at 45 - 50 ft lbs of recoil, should be a nice break-in to the world of big guns, milder even than 416 or 404 Jeff.

A 400 gr bullet regulated at 2050 seems to be in the same ball park on KE as 375 H&H and 9.3x62 - around 3700 ft lbs, although obviously bigger frontal area than .375 or .366

Click to expand...

Sounds perfect.

Food for thought. Just about any large double caliber can shoot like a 40 caliber with minimum powder charges and be as deadly as a 40 cal with them. Then as he seasons, add more powder and heavier bullets.

Naturally someone has to reload ammo to make this possible.

sgt_zim said:

If this has been addressed in another thread, I can't find it.

I think my oldest son will be in the market for a double soon, and my thought is to steer him to this cartridge, at least for his first bite at the double apple.

This isn't considered a stopper, is it? The biggest rifle he's ever shot is a 9.3x62, but at 45 - 50 ft lbs of recoil, should be a nice break-in to the world of big guns, milder even than 416 or 404 Jeff.

A 400 gr bullet regulated at 2050 seems to be in the same ball park on KE as 375 H&H and 9.3x62 - around 3700 ft lbs, although obviously bigger frontal area than .375 or .366

Click to expand...

The evidence is self evident that a 404J or 450-400 has significantly better results on dangerous game than a 375HH. Pondoro et. al have noted this observation for more than a century.

A 375HH averages about 38-40lbs of felt recoil in a magazine rifle. A 450-400 produces 40lbs-44lbs of felt recoil in a double rifle.

Imperceptible differences in recoil yet you're getting a lot more lethality. I think your idea is smart.

My first buffalo was taken with a 450/400 3.25" and wouldn't hesitate to use one on anything although there are better choices for elephant.

I took a Roan and Hippo with a 450/400 double. It will be a nice easy transition from your 9.3x62. It is an ideal client buffalo rifle.

sgt_zim: The 450/400 might not be a "stopping rifle" but it is considered a good "client / hunter rifle." Good choice unless your son is an aspiring PH.

Just a dude in BC said:

The 450-400 is a good 100yard and in dg hunting caliber, and some newer ammunition is closer to 2100/2150 fps (Hornady specifically). What gives it some real killing power is the slightly narrower bore of .410" with a 400gr bullet this gives you an SD of .34 so the penetration on them is excellent.

Click to expand...

The velocity numbers may be a bit deceptive. The old Kynoch loads were measured from a 26" barrel. Hornady uses a 24" barrel for their handload data, but most of the loads referenced tend closer to 2050 than to 2150 fps.

Your mileage of course, may vary.

It’s a great caliber for a client double. The most important thing for a client is to put the first shots where they need to go. This significantly reduces the chance of needing to “stop” anything in a charge.

Even in a charge there is no substitute for shot placement. The only place where I believe a “stopping” rifle really helps is with a near miss on an elephant brain shot. To a certain degree a stopping rifle provides a wider margin of error for elephant head shots.

If you want a little more power consider a .500/.416. It’s a little faster, but still with very manageable recoil.

I shot my first buffalo with a 375H&H and the second with a 450/400 3" in a double rifle. They are both good and cross the capability threshold, but the 450/400 is better. As others have said, the most important thing is first shot placement - get it right, get it done.

@sgt_zim,

for what its worth, my bit of experience with my 450-400.

mine is an o/u zoli, it has 25.5" barrels i think. mine is regulated to hornady dgx, it likes 2100 fps.

i shot a cape buffalo, twice, about 35 yards, broke his shoulder and hip, (ph shot before he went into a gorge, but he was dead on his feet.)

i shot a moose at 325 yards (ranged) running, broke his hip and a buddy finished with his 338 lapua. shot another bull moose at 225 yards in the neck shoulder junction, dropped instantly. shot a wildebeest at 190 yards, shoulder shot, it ran 40-50 yards and piled up. so although it is likely considered a shot range gun, it can be an honest 200 yard gun.

recoil is not to bad. my rifle weighs about 10# and is a pleasure to shoot. mine is scoped with a 1-6X. i don't consider myself super experienced with it, but i really enjoy hunting with it.

craig boddington considered it "perfect" for buffalo as did "pondoro" taylor. there was a australian guy, dave....something or other. after shooting thousands of water buffalo, he settled on the 450-400 as the perfect combination of power and shoot ability. if you are going to delve into the world of "big bores" this is probably the starting point.

i am a fan. this 40 cal rifle is a stopper if you hit the right spot with the right bullet. good luck on your search, mine is a shooter!

Troubleshooter said:

sgt_zim: The 450/400 might not be a "stopping rifle" but it is considered a good "client / hunter rifle." Good choice unless your son is an aspiring PH.


The velocity numbers may be a bit deceptive. The old Kynoch loads were measured from a 26" barrel. Hornady uses a 24" barrel for their handload data, but most of the loads referenced tend closer to 2050 than to 2150 fps.

Your mileage of course, may vary.

Click to expand...

When the time comes, what I may do is see if I can get a load regulated with H4350. Hornady doesn't list it, but what I've found is that it gives better performance out of barrels shorter than what's indicated in the load data than slower powders like H1000, MagPro, et al give.

My 22" 280AI and 6.5x55 do way better with H4350 than they do with slower powders i've tried like IMR4831 and Magnum.

In a way, I think the thinking is backwards. Your son is young and probably as strong as he will ever be? He can handle more recoil now. When he gets old, he will need the recoil reduction, as I can testify....