Opinions on the real big boys? 500J, 505 Gibbs, .500 NE, 577NE, 600NE, 700NE etc.

Wishfulthinker580 said:

Fabulous And Unique Westley Richards .577 3" Double Rifle / The Explora - Premier Online Field Sports & Gun Journal

However, the passion for hunting elephant and buffalo (the primary recipients of these 750-grain bullets) is, if anything, increasing and
www.westleyrichards.com www.westleyrichards.com
Click to expand...
Odd:
“If a reminder is needed about the performance of this beautifully built and perfectly proportioned big game stopper, the .577 NE packs 5,400 ft-lbs of energy when it delivers its 750-grain bullet at 1,800 fps. We chronographed this at between 1,830 and 1,871 fps in testing.”
 
Certus said:
Odd:
“If a reminder is needed about the performance of this beautifully built and perfectly proportioned big game stopper, the .577 NE packs 5,400 ft-lbs of energy when it delivers its 750-grain bullet at 1,800 fps. We chronographed this at between 1,830 and 1,871 fps in testing.”
Click to expand...
Yea it is.
Even with the shorter barrels you would think it would be around 1950 fps.

Either they load their ammo pretty tame or someone got their wires crossed somewhere.
 
Wishfulthinker580 said:
Yea it is.
Even with the shorter barrels you would think it would be around 1950 fps.

Either they load their ammo pretty tame or someone got their wires crossed somewhere.
Click to expand...

Kynoch / ICI's load data from 1921 / 1926 is the gospel everyone quotes.

Lies.

A.) They used 28" test barrels and with stranded cordite they could never reproduce those speeds with 24"-27" barrels.

B.) They also lied on top of that.

Case and point: 470NE is supposed to be moving at 2150FPS. Most vintage guns regulate at 2025-2075FPS. People get themselves injured and destroy doubles all the time by trying to regulate at 2150FPS. The original pressures at the original real-world velocities were much lower.

Napkin Math: If Kynoch's liar data for 577NE was 1950fps out of a 28" barrel and you own a 25" gun, subtract 90FPS (30fps per inch) and you're at 1860fps. Then remove another 30fps because they lied and you're at 1830fps, exactly what Westley Richards says is real-world.

Does it matter? Pondoro Taylor didn't know the real-world lethargic velocities whatsoever when he published his book a century ago, he simply remarked as to which calibers were highly effective and which ones were not. ALL the storied calibers performed very well at their understated real-world velocities. The only harm that comes from the lies is that modern factory loads are made to the original published velocities (wrong) and as such they are dangerous to all vintage guns and many modern guns as well.
 
Last edited:
rookhawk said:
Kynoch / ICI's load data from 1921 / 1926 is the gospel everyone quotes.

Lies.

A.) They used 28" test barrels and with stranded cordite they could never reproduce those speeds with 24"-28" barrels.

B.) They also lied on top of that.

Case and point: 470NE is supposed to be moving at 2150FPS. Most vintage guns regulate at 2025-2075FPS. People get themselves injured and destroy doubles all the time by trying to regulate at 2150FPS. The original pressures at the original real-world velocities were much lower.

Napkin Math: If Kynoch's liar data for 577NE was 1950fps out of a 28" barrel and you own a 25" gun, subtract 90FPS (30fps per inch) and you're at 1860fps. Then remove another 30fps because they lied and you're at 1830fps, exactly what Westley Richards says is real-world.

Does it matter? Pondoro Taylor didn't know the real-world lethargic velocities whatsoever when he published his book a century ago, he simply remarked as to which calibers were highly effective and which ones were not. ALL the storied calibers performed very well at their understated real-world velocities. The only harm that comes from the lies is that modern factory loads are made to the original published velocities (wrong) and as such they are dangerous to all vintage guns and many modern guns as well.
Click to expand...
No argument from me. I find it curious that Kynamco is listing the historic/conventional figure rather than what their actual modern loaded ammunition is going. You’d think they’d have their own ballistic information on their site.
 
A lot of pie in the sky regarding velocities on Kynoch ammo..

I get an average of 2048fps from 28" barrels from my .450/400 3.25 double with 1970 vintage Kynoch ammunition... splendid regulation though..
 
Wishfulthinker580 said:
No argument from me. I find it curious that Kynamco is listing the historic/conventional figure rather than what their actual modern loaded ammunition is going. You’d think they’d have their own ballistic information on their site.
Click to expand...

The reason will be primarily commercial, as was the case more than 100 years ago. Nevertheless, ammunition from Kynoch is certainly loaded at the upper limit of the permitted pressure range. This is clearly evident in the loads of the cartridge 600 Nitro Express, where an attempt was certainly made to copy the original 110gr Cordite load. I have never shot modern ammunition caliber 577 Nitro Express from Kynoch.
 
Tropical loads are 10% reduced load, and that not without reason. What ultimately results as muzzle velocity must be measured under hot climatic conditions, preferably in the hunting area in Africa. All mainly theory for already obsolete rifles and cartridges.
 
Was just reading in Sports Afield last night: Boddington's opinion is that anything over 500NE is not only unnecessary, but also counter-productive, as the recoil prevents a rapid and accurate follow up shot. And the 450/400 is the ideal.
 
OxfordTheCat said:
Was just reading in Sports Afield last night: Boddington's opinion is that anything over 500NE is not only unnecessary, but also counter-productive, as the recoil prevents a rapid and accurate follow up shot. And the 450/400 is the ideal.
Click to expand...

As an owner of a DR caliber 577 Nitro Express and another one caliber 600 Nitro Express, I can only agree. The classic old rifles of this type are heavy, especially top-heavy because of the big barrels and have a strong recoil. After the first shot, you lose your target and have to re-acquire it. Reloading quickly is, due to the weight of the rifle and the strong designed break actions, also not easy either. Anyone who needs a third shot in a dangerous situation may perhaps encounter problems. Maybe more modern versions of such rifles are lighter and more manageable, but the problem of the strong recoil and the associated problems remain or are even worse. Buying such rifles primarily for hunting requires careful consideration. I would therefore advise everyone to shoot with such rifles several times beforehand and consider whether everything would go well in a dangerous situation. The days when a gun-bearer would quickly give a hunter another rifle in an emergency case are over. It is certain that nowadays there is a PH with you for backup, but then the question arises: Why do I need a double rifle of such a caliber?
 
grand veneur said:
As an owner of a DR caliber 577 Nitro Express and another one caliber 600 Nitro Express, I can only agree. The classic old rifles of this type are heavy, especially top-heavy because of the big barrels and have a strong recoil. After the first shot, you lose your target and have to re-acquire it. Reloading quickly is, due to the weight of the rifle and the strong designed break actions, also not easy either. Anyone who needs a third shot in a dangerous situation may perhaps encounter problems. Maybe more modern versions of such rifles are lighter and more manageable, but the problem of the strong recoil and the associated problems remain or are even worse. Buying such rifles primarily for hunting requires careful consideration. I would therefore advise everyone to shoot with such rifles several times beforehand and consider whether everything would go well in a dangerous situation. The days when a gun-bearer would quickly give a hunter another rifle in an emergency case are over. It is certain that nowadays there is a PH with you for backup, but then the question arises: Why do I need a double rifle of such a caliber?
Click to expand...
You are absolutely correct . I have a 600NE . Fun to look at - less fun to shoot .These days mainly pulled out of the gun rack for lots of “Ooohs and Aaahs “. Over the years I’ve hunted with double 577NE rifles from H&H , Jeffery and a nitro for black double from Army & Navy . Heavy recoil and heavy weight equates to not a lot of fun . I still hunt on my own ( only water buff ) so prefer a heavier rifle . Something in the 404J bolt action through to 500NE double. If hunting with a PH I think the 375H&H through to 416 family are perfect for anywhere . Being the strange fellow that I am I really like the 425 WR which is effectively the same as the 404 or 416s . A great cartridge as long as you reload .
 
PCC600 said:
You are absolutely correct . I have a 600NE . Fun to look at - less fun to shoot .These days mainly pulled out of the gun rack for lots of “Ooohs and Aaahs “. Over the years I’ve hunted with double 577NE rifles from H&H , Jeffery and a nitro for black double from Army & Navy . Heavy recoil and heavy weight equates to not a lot of fun . I still hunt on my own ( only water buff ) so prefer a heavier rifle . Something in the 404J bolt action through to 500NE double. If hunting with a PH I think the 375H&H through to 416 family are perfect for anywhere . Being the strange fellow that I am I really like the 425 WR which is effectively the same as the 404 or 416s . A great cartridge as long as you reload .
Click to expand...


You guys are correct. I will pay the shipping to take those heinous beasts off your hands and dispose of them forthwith. I will sign a document declaring that they have been properly destroyed.

No videos or pictures provided though. :cool:
 
I get 2170fps out of 23,5" barrels on my .470 Krieghoff double...with Hornady factory ammo.. That is 5200 foot pounds.. I really do not think more is neccesary..

Maybe a .500 give you a little more margin.. But then there is recoil..recovery time etc..

.577 and .600 was made for professional ivory hunters.
 
Altitude sickness said:
You guys are correct. I will pay the shipping to take those heinous beasts off your hands and dispose of them forthwith. I will sign a document declaring that they have been properly destroyed.

No videos or pictures provided though. :cool:
Click to expand...
Thank you for your kind offer but I already have a line forming outside of my house offering to do the same .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Members online

... and 1229 more.
Total: 39,040 (members: 1,279, guests: 37,761)

Forum statistics

Threads
60,470
Messages
1,318,040
Members
111,522
Latest member
kirtijonson
 

 

 

Proudly sponsored by

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

R
Rattler1 wrote on trperk1's profile.
trperk1, I bought the Kimber Caprivi 375 back in an earlier post. You attached a target with an impressive three rounds touching 100 yards. I took the 2x10 VX5 off and put a VX6 HD Gen 2 1x6x24 Duplex Firedot on the rifle. It's definitely a shooter curious what loads you used for the group. Loving this rifle so fun to shoot. Africa 2026 Mozambique. Buff and PG. Any info appreciated.
•••
G
Gasman43
Ready for the hunt with HTK Safaris
•••
Treemantwo
Treemantwo wrote on Jager Waffen74's profile.
Hello:
I’ll take the .375 Whitworth for $1,150 if the deal falls through.
Thanks .
Derek
[redacted]
•••
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
check out our new updateshttps://www.africahunting.com/threads/henry-griffiths-safaris-hunting-trailcam-pictures-and-hunting-tour-updates.78630/page-10#post-1403904
•••
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
HENRY GRIFFITHS SAFARIS
Sable hunt!

•••

Share this page

 
Top