12 gauge Paradox Gun-Is it Possible to even get supplies to shoot?

[uplander01]

Hello All-

This may seem like an odd question but honestly, Is it even possible to buy the equipment, brass, slugs, wads, etc in order to load and shoot a nitro proofed paradox gun? These guns fascinate me and the more I read and look at them, the more I want one. I am not a pure collector, I would want to hand load and shoot the thing and possibly have a "paradox safari". They are not an inexpensive to acquire, at least one that is documented, in good shape and cased. A few on the market now that are very interesting. Maybe I'm crazy, but to me a safari is as much about the guns as it is the actual taking of the critter. Love history of the firearms that come with it. Evidenced by this summers upcoming safari in Zimbabwe, its the "English Double" outing. Only guns that have 2 barrels and made in England. Looks like it will be the Manton 470 and a Webley Scott model 700 12 gauge.

Any and all info on Parardox Guns welcome, I just don't know much about them.

Thanks-

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Factory loaded 12 Gauge (2.5 “) Paradox shells are currently being manufactured by Hull Cartridge Co.

12 bore nitro-paradox, 740gr solid, .735 dia. bullet, 2.5" red plastic Price: $190/box

www.drake.net

But the 740Gr soft lead slugs travel at fairly low velocities (1050 fps). Currently, Paradox guns are offered for sale by:
- Holland & Holland
- William Moore & Co.

Both are only offered with 2.75 “ chambers and proofed for 36 gram loads, with a proof pressure of 850 BAR and a service pressure of 740 BAR.

This is a vintage 12 Gauge Lyon & Lyon Paradox hammer gun.

Tomorrow, I will visit my friend’s gun shop and take photographs of two more vintage 12 Gauge Paradox guns for you.

Regarding the Webley & Scott Model 700 … They are good well made shotguns. But they do have a couple of drawbacks. They use an integral hinge pin instead of the more superior removable hinge pin, and so they are extremely difficult to rejoint when the barrels begin to get “off face” . And they lack third bites or any form of crossbolting. These shotguns were made to shoot loads no heavier than 32 grams, even though they had 2.75“ chambers. Should be lovely for hunting francolin or guinea fowl over dogs. But not really much of a waterfowl gun.

 

[Red Leg]

My molds were made by Ross Seyfried. I don't know anywhere that you can simply buy one. Other than that, it is fairly straight forward. I would suggest looking around on line and see if you can find any of the Holland & Holland ammunition. They started making the paradox again several years ago and have underwritten several runs of ammunition.

As @Hunter-Habib notes, Lewis and Drake were carrying them.

The load regulates in my William Evans at 60 yards what Ross's loads do at 100. But still very usable.

Be very careful buying a paradox. When they went out of fashion, a large number had the rifling bored out to make them pure shotguns (hopefully whomever participated in such desecration are burning in hell).

The William Evans below has rolled two warthog for leopard bait and made a sizable pile of sand grouse from the same waterhole in Namibia one afternoon.

 

[Vashper]

in Russia, one small company Svarog produced bullet molds for a bullet for a 12-gauge paradox about $ 50. Bullets in three versions. We had paradoxes in the form of interchangeable chokes. But here is the problem - since this year the paradoxes have been equated with rifled weapons, and the demand for them has collapsed.

 

[ActionBob]

I'm fortunate that mine came with molds and tools. Extra bullets, wads, and paper hulls as well as a few loaded rounds. I'll share more details when I get home and find time.

Side note, I was told or read somewhere that the only "true" Paradox is a Holland and Holland. The term "Paradox gun" is proprietary to H&H.

Another great maker copied the concept and had a different word for it that eludes me at the moment. However there are great guns in the Paradox genre built by other makers.

If it's within your budget I definitely encourage you to get one.

 

[Red Leg]

I'm fortunate that mine came with molds and tools. Extra bullets, wads, and paper hulls as well as a few loaded rounds. I'll share more details when I get home and find time.

Side note, I was told or read somewhere that the only "true" Paradox is a Holland and Holland. The term "Paradox gun" is proprietary to H&H.

Another great maker copied the concept and had a different word for it that eludes me at the moment. However there are great guns in the Paradox genre built by other makers.

If it's within your budget I definitely encourage you to get one.

Now there you go listening to what those H&H snobs say ......

H&H did have proprietary patent on both the "Paradox" name and the Fosbery rifling system when first introduced in the late 1800's. Competitors, like Westley Richards, immediately started building competing designs using slightly different rifling and calling the design the "Explora." There were others. By the turn of the century, the patents had expired, and later guns like my Evans (1911) carry the name "Paradox" and uses the original Fosbery rifling.

 

[Red Leg]

in Russia, one small company Svarog produced bullet molds for a bullet for a 12-gauge paradox about $ 50. Bullets in three versions. We had paradoxes in the form of interchangeable chokes. But here is the problem - since this year the paradoxes have been equated with rifled weapons, and the demand for them has collapsed.

A clever aspect of the British design was that the rifling did not affect the shot pattern. My Evans will group four shots (LxR/LxR) under three inches at 100 meters. It will also shoot perfect I/C patterns with No.6 shot without changing anything.

 

[Sarg]

I'm fairly sure CBE in Australia still makes moulds for both 12ga-bore & 20ga slugs !

I have used a few moulds from them & they have been top class .

 

[uplander01]

This is all great information, so different than more modern stuff. The rifle I'm looking at is what appears to be a quite late production explora model made by WR for Army Navy. 2 3/4
" chambers Nitro proofed for 1 1/8 oz shot and 750 grain slug. Does this mean that this gun won't even be able to shoot 1 1/8 oz 3 dram modern loads for shotshells?? Also, I though the original 750 grain paradox load was for 6 drams of black powder and 1650 FPS?? If its nitro proofed thats modern smokeless compatible ?? Here is the link to the gun, I know Mark and Mike teh guys that own this shop in SD, but they I'm sure don't have the experience that some of you have with this type of gun. I believe they bought a very large africana collection and have been steadily selling it....

Westley Richards Army Navy Explora Paradox ON SALE!

Westley Richards Army Navy Explora Paradox ON SALE! for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

 

[leslie hetrick]

my fake 12 ga 3" rifled paradox, it weights less than 6 lbs and shoots very well with standard velocity and high velocity sabot lead-copper slugs. it will remove your hat when shot with the remington high velocity copper slugs.

 

[Red Leg]

This is all great information, so different than more modern stuff. The rifle I'm looking at is what appears to be a quite late production explora model made by WR for Army Navy. 2 3/4
" chambers Nitro proofed for 1 1/8 oz shot and 750 grain slug. Does this mean that this gun won't even be able to shoot 1 1/8 oz 3 dram modern loads for shotshells?? Also, I though the original 750 grain paradox load was for 6 drams of black powder and 1650 FPS?? If its nitro proofed thats modern smokeless compatible ?? Here is the link to the gun, I know Mark and Mike teh guys that own this shop in SD, but they I'm sure don't have the experience that some of you have with this type of gun. I believe they bought a very large africana collection and have been steadily selling it....

Westley Richards Army Navy Explora Paradox ON SALE!

Westley Richards Army Navy Explora Paradox ON SALE! for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

This is an extraordinary and classic Westley Richards cased Explora. I wonder if the case was added later; perhaps when it went back for the tune-up the paperwork indicates. A small mystery. Normally the case paper label would also say the Army & Navy consortium. In any case, it is obviously a Westley Richards of superb quality.

It is proofed for 1 1/8 loads so then it is almost certainly a 2.5" chambered gun - as was every Explora model I have looked at. That is not a problem. True 2.5 inch shells are easily ordered by the flat for delivery to your door. Also, normally usually, most of the time, 1 1/8 ounce 2 3/4 inch loads can be used. I say normally because two of my English guns have such tight chambers that they are difficult to open upon firing. It is not a pressure thing. The fired shell simply presses back against the action face because of its length. Best plan is to order 2.5" loads.

And yes, this gun was designed for smokeless powder and will handle the modern H&H loads. How well they regulate will be a question, but it should be fine to at least fifty yards.

And bargain with them. Yes, it is a WR but it is marked A&N and is not a drop lock. Were it my money, I wouldn't want to go over 12.

And that case is about a $1500 of fitted oak and leather.

 

[Red Leg]

my fake 12 ga 3" rifled paradox, it weights less than 6 lbs and shoots very well with standard velocity and high velocity sabot lead-copper slugs. it will remove your hat when shot with the remington high velocity copper slugs.

Not very much like a paradox. The difference between a modern slug gun and a paradox is that the paradox will also shoot shot as well as a pure shotgun - hence the name. No one in this country has a clue how to recreate such 140 year old technology.

 

[AZDAVE]

I could use one of those 20ga molds for my 20 Double rifle.

 

[WAB]

This is all great information, so different than more modern stuff. The rifle I'm looking at is what appears to be a quite late production explora model made by WR for Army Navy. 2 3/4
" chambers Nitro proofed for 1 1/8 oz shot and 750 grain slug. Does this mean that this gun won't even be able to shoot 1 1/8 oz 3 dram modern loads for shotshells?? Also, I though the original 750 grain paradox load was for 6 drams of black powder and 1650 FPS?? If its nitro proofed thats modern smokeless compatible ?? Here is the link to the gun, I know Mark and Mike teh guys that own this shop in SD, but they I'm sure don't have the experience that some of you have with this type of gun. I believe they bought a very large africana collection and have been steadily selling it....

Westley Richards Army Navy Explora Paradox ON SALE!

Westley Richards Army Navy Explora Paradox ON SALE! for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

That is truly an extraordinary weapon. I hope that you are successful in negotiating them to an acceptable price.

 

[Sarg]

This is all great information, so different than more modern stuff. The rifle I'm looking at is what appears to be a quite late production explora model made by WR for Army Navy. 2 3/4
" chambers Nitro proofed for 1 1/8 oz shot and 750 grain slug. Does this mean that this gun won't even be able to shoot 1 1/8 oz 3 dram modern loads for shotshells?? Also, I though the original 750 grain paradox load was for 6 drams of black powder and 1650 FPS?? If its nitro proofed thats modern smokeless compatible ?? Here is the link to the gun, I know Mark and Mike teh guys that own this shop in SD, but they I'm sure don't have the experience that some of you have with this type of gun. I believe they bought a very large africana collection and have been steadily selling it....

Westley Richards Army Navy Explora Paradox ON SALE!

Westley Richards Army Navy Explora Paradox ON SALE! for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

Oh yes be still my heart with that Gun/Rifle a dream of mine one of those or better still a Super Explora, I have a cartridge some where, the only thing I recovered from my WR Super Explora hunt- for the Gun !

When I found the owner & gun it had been rebarreled/sleeved with Teague inserts, then becoming a heavy expensive but I felt useless shotgun only.

Not sure how the standard Explora will regulate with a standard Paradox slug, as the WR Explora Cartridge has a Hi Tec Bullet but I would be keen to find out if I could afford one lol .

Good luck & please let us know how you go .

On the H&R-New England rifles, yes I have one also (and another waiting for repair) it shoots RB well & not too savage on recoil but as you up the loads yes it will tip your hat & your teeth.

Also fully rifled so will not shoot shot for shit .

On that when I hunted in Japan we some times used a shotgun as these are very slightly less restricted but they can only have a certain amount of rifling in the barrel, so many guys have a fully rifled barrel smooth bored for a certain length of the barrel & then it is legal to hold on the Shotgun Endorsement, these shot very well up to 150yds, better in the old days as new rules banned lead & the Barnes Bullets were not great Stag killers & you were in big trouble on full sized Brown Bears in the thick Sasa .

 

[Red Leg]

Oh yes be still my heart with that Gun/Rifle a dream of mine one of those or better still a Super Explora, I have a cartridge some where, the only thing I recovered from my WR Super Explora hunt- for the Gun !

When I found the owner & gun it had been rebarreled/sleeved with Teague inserts, then becoming a heavy expensive but I felt useless shotgun only.

Not sure how the standard Explora will regulate with a standard Paradox slug, as the WR Explora Cartridge has a Hi Tec Bullet but I would be keen to find out if I could afford one lol .

Good luck & please let us know how you go .

On the H&R-New England rifles, yes I have one also (and another waiting for repair) it shoots RB well & not too savage on recoil but as you up the loads yes it will tip your hat & your teeth.

Also fully rifled so will not shoot shot for shit .

On that when I hunted in Japan we some times used a shotgun as these are very slightly less restricted but they can only have a certain amount of rifling in the barrel, so many guys have a fully rifled barrel smooth bored for a certain length of the barrel & then it is legal to hold on the Shotgun Endorsement, these shot very well up to 150yds, better in the old days as new rules banned lead & the Barnes Bullets were not great Stag killers & you were in big trouble on full sized Brown Bears in the thick Sasa .

Every third one I have seen has been sleeved or bored out. Just criminal.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

The difference between a modern slug gun and a paradox is that the paradox will also shoot shot as well as a pure shotgun - hence the name.

Paradox??? I heard the name came from the two co-inventors, who happened to be physicians.

 

[Red Leg]

Paradox??? I heard the name came from the two co-inventors, who happened to be physicians.

 

[Dewald]

This is all great information, so different than more modern stuff. The rifle I'm looking at is what appears to be a quite late production explora model made by WR for Army Navy. 2 3/4
" chambers Nitro proofed for 1 1/8 oz shot and 750 grain slug. Does this mean that this gun won't even be able to shoot 1 1/8 oz 3 dram modern loads for shotshells?? Also, I though the original 750 grain paradox load was for 6 drams of black powder and 1650 FPS?? If its nitro proofed thats modern smokeless compatible ?? Here is the link to the gun, I know Mark and Mike teh guys that own this shop in SD, but they I'm sure don't have the experience that some of you have with this type of gun. I believe they bought a very large africana collection and have been steadily selling it....

Westley Richards Army Navy Explora Paradox ON SALE!

Westley Richards Army Navy Explora Paradox ON SALE! for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

It’s interesting that the gun is called both the “Explora” from it’s WR origin, as well as “The Jungle Gun”, as A&N termed it.

I think Rigby chose the name “Ball & Shot” and Cogswell and Harrison named it the Cosmos.

A South African company, Armour Brass, used to lathe turn some high quality brass for them. They were available with both large pistol and shotgun primer pockets. I think they retailed for about R40-R50 a piece. If anyone is interested I can put you in contact with the late owner’s son. He still has stock left.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

It’s interesting that the gun is called both the “Explora” from it’s WR origin, as well as “The Jungle Gun”, as A&N termed it.

I think Rigby chose the name “Ball & Shot” and Cogswell and Harrison named it the Cosmos.

A South African company, Armour Brass, used to lathe turn some high quality brass for them. They were available with both large pistol and shotgun primer pockets. I think they retailed for about R40-R50 a piece. If anyone is interested I can put you in contact with the late owner’s son. He still has stock left.

R.B. Rodda & Co. called it the “Paragon”.