1903 Mannlicher Help

[Aaron N]

Good day!

No I know there are plenty of MS rifle fans on here, so I’d like a bit of help.

I’m considering filling my toe into the 6.5x54 pond and if you guys can point out anything of concern with this rifle it would be appreciated!

Also, any suggestions for reloading would be great as well. I do remember a thread on here in the past about them being fussy when it came to hand loads.

 

[Aaron N]

And also, what sort of a beast would scoping one become.

 

[baxterb]

Watching with interest. Don’t have one (would love to) but it seems they are finicky with bullets and feeding - meaning they do well with the original weight/RN profile but can struggle with others.

 

[shotgungibbs]

Beautiful wood on that rifle! I will follow this thread as well.

 

[Matthias5662]

Hi Aaron,
Beautiful Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle. I've collected these for some time and love them. From what I can see your Model 1903 appears unadulterated. It may have been reblued or restocked but it was done very well. It is a single trigger model made on or after 1924 judging from the "Made in Austria" on the front receiver ring. Carefully removing the barreled action from the stock will give you an idea of the date of manufacture as the barrel and receiver are most often stamped there with proof house marks that indicate the year the action was proofed.
They are wonderful rifles to shoot and have a super smooth action. The 6.5x54 MS is a great caliber. You can find brass and bullets readily online (reloading dies too). (160 gr Hornady RN, with IMR 4350) is a great mild load.

Respectfully I'd like to caution you on a couple things:
Please use thin blade turnscrews or screwdrivers (from a store that sells higher-end gunsmith supplies). Regular screwdrivers - even ones you typically get from sporting goods stores that say "gunsmith screwdrivers" will likely mess up the screws - which is bad. Their blades are too thick for these very thin European slots. You can get really good thin screwdriver blades from Brownells.
Also, please consider NOT putting a scope on your gorgeous Model 1903 and shoot it like it was intended - with iron sights.
Have fun with that great piece of history - there's a reason they've been referred to as the "World's Finest Rifle"

 

[Major Bonkers]

To me, the trigger guard looks wrong: it should be more like a shotgun's, but this may just be the angle or the photographs. Ideally it ought to have a second (set or hair) trigger. The parts can be bought from Herr Miedler in Austria.

Most importantly, check for barrel throat erosion ('cordite burn').

Don't 'scope it. It would be like putting bumper stickers on your Rolls-Royce or tattoos on a beautiful woman. As it is, the rifle is perfectly balanced and quite capable of being shot accurately off-hand with its mild recoil.

In any case, mounting 'scopes does not really work because the bolt has to come back through the split bridge. This means that 'scopes are generally too high, as well as looking like a pig's ear.

These are valuable rifles in the UK - expect to pay above £1,500/ CAD 2,500.

 

[Dirtdart]

I consulted the Mannlicher Schoenauer Association here in the US before I had mine 1903 fitted for a scope. The advice given was that it would not have any negative effect on the value considering the rifle had been refinished. My shot placement is most effective with a telescopic sight but each to their own. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but, since you asked.

I felt the best option was a copy of the Redfield style of base made by Watts Walnut. Solid machined steel with the same dimensions as the long discontinued Redfield. Currently EAW produces a side mount and there were others in the past. I wouldn't trust the drill & tap to just any shop. My choice of mount had nothing to do with price even though it is much cheaper than the side mount.

As far as ammunition goes there is a thread somewhere on this forum with lots of info. Bullet nose profile and seating depth are crucial. When you find the sweet spot it is a joy to work the bolt. If I didn't load my own it would be difficult to feed my 1903.

I can't imagine not having the double set triggers on one of these.

The 1904 Portuguese Mauser has a split rear bridge like the MS and is am example of the EAW side mount for reference.

 

[Aaron N]

Personally, I can’t shoot irons, mainly because I’ve never had all that much practice (kids nowadays, huh).

Also a rifle is a tool, it can be a work of art, but none the less function comes before form. For a rifle to achieve its highest function for me, it requires a scope. This isn’t a 20k rigby I’d be flushing down the drain, but a 2k rifle. I can take the hit on losing collectors value if I get the pleasure of hunting with it.

 

[Denvir Tire]

That appears to be a very nice rifle, I certainly have rifle envy...

 

[Matthias5662]

Agreed that function comes before form. That said, perhaps consider a side mount that would not cut a dove tail into the engraving on the receiver ring or drill holes in it. Some side mounts also allow you to co-witness the iron sights too if ever needed. Although most side mounts are quick detach anyway. Be prepared for a relatively high mounted scope because of the flag safety. Not the biggest muley in the world but the 102 yr old Model 1903 below (with a single trigger like yours) can still put 160 gr pill very accurately down range.

 

[KiwiHunter]

While others mention reloading/feeding issues. I have not had any feeding issues with any of my reload using 120, 140 or 160gr bullets from suppliers like Speer, Sierra etc or with RWS factory loads. Just keep a good check on COAL and the usual caviat of checking that all loads feed reliably before venturing afield or to the range.

 

[KiwiHunter]

Ps
Yours looks to be in great condition. Wish mine was in that condition when I got it.
Amen to Matthias5662 advise on screws and screwdrivers the screw slots are very thin indeed.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

It seems I'm a bit 'late to the party', here. so I will mostly be reiterating the excellent advice of others (particularly Matthaias' advice regarding proper drivers) with one exception; the trigger guard looks 'normal' for an MS ordered with the single trigger option. Also, my initial emotion would be to agree that an original, uncut, MS should not be 'scoped but if you really do want it done I'd go with claw mounts as available from New England Custom Gun ( https://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/products.php?cat=279 ).

NECG 'German Claw Mount' for MS

You may wish to find and handle a 'scoped MS before committing to such alteration. Fire it with and without 'scope (claw mounts allow quick one handed removal with replacement to exact zero) and see how you like it. Major Bonkers is generally correct about the high placement of a claw mounted or side mounted 'scope. The appearance is a matter of taste, it is how they were done 'back in the day' (my cased, 1922 proofed, M1910 wears a contemporary claw mounted Gerard 'B'), not only to clear the bolt but so that one may use iron sights with 'scope attached. Joel Dorleac, who has expertly restored MS and other classic rifles / stutzen has mounted 'scopes low on MS per client specification, but the 'see through' function is lost in doing so. From anecdotes I've read, the 'continental shooter' of pre WW2 Europe was more accustomed to an upright shooting stance and was not bothered by high scope placement. It's a matter of preference.

'Scope mounted low on (post WW2) MS in '458 by Dorleac

Regardless, 'scoping an MS is a very expensive proposition that should absolutely be performed only by an expert craftsman who has successfully 'scoped many Mannlicher Schoenauers.


Back to the rifle in question:
By the photographs she appears to be a fine, completely original, Mannlicher Schoenauer M1903 stutzen (full stocked carbine) with receiver manufactured between 1924 (when 'Made In Austria' was added to front receiver bridge) and 1926 (when 'Oesterr. Waffenfabr. Ges- Steyr' was changed to 'Steyr Werke AG'). They were available with several options, including single or double - set triggers, custom barrel length, even "Stock of specially selected pretty wood", which may have been a box ticked when this one was ordered.

Commercially loaded cartridges for the 6.5X54 are generally available (Prvi Partisan) unlike the MS cartridges of 9X56 (M1905), 8X56 (M1908, or 9.5X57 (M1910) which are typically handloading propositions.

The 6.5X54 MS, as well as the others of pre M1924, will feed flawlessly when loaded with cartridges built to the precise dimensions of original DWM or Eley (Kynoch) specifications.
Cartridges function in the Schoenauer magazine as pin bearings in a race. The rotary spindle and walls of magazine housing are machined to the precise clearances of original cartridges and cartridges of shorter overall length or of different bullet profile may tend to jam, particularly if there's not enough 'meat' at the top third of the projectile.

Build them precisely like this and they'll feed like melted butter on glass:

If you purchase the arm, here's how to determine when it was proofed.
Carefully disassemble with properly fitting (thin) driver tips and find marks in this format:

The image above shows an M1903 (C 6.5 denotes 'caliber'), Steyr serial number 4143, the 411th arm to be 'Nitro Proofed' at Vienna in 1908 (411.08, NPv)


Again, guided only by the images supplied, I'd say purchase it before it gets away. If its in your budget (or you can make it happen) and you miss it, it may haunt you for years.
The pre WW2 MS are highly prized by those who know of them and the 6.5X54 is, by far, the most popular of the original MS proprietary chamberings. It was the 6.5X54 that cemented the reputation of MS as light, handy, accurate, and supremely 'pointable', seeming to nearly aim themselves when brought quickly to the shoulder ('snap shooting'). Their smoothness of function and reliability is unsurpassed.


Here is a half ton of additional information regarding der Mannlicher Schoenauer (as if you're not already 'sold'): https://www.africahunting.com/threa...908-m1910-m1924-m1925-or-high-velocity.47277/

 

[Aaron N]

It seems I'm a bit 'late to the party', here. so I will mostly be reiterating the excellent advice of others (particularly Matthaias' advice regarding proper drivers) with one exception; the trigger guard looks 'normal' for an MS ordered with the single trigger option. Also, my initial emotion would be to agree that an original, uncut, MS should not be 'scoped but if you really do want it done I'd go with claw mounts as available from New England Custom Gun ( https://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/products.php?cat=279 ).

View attachment 550673
NECG 'German Claw Mount' for MS

You may wish to find and handle a 'scoped MS before committing to such alteration. Fire it with and without 'scope (claw mounts allow quick one handed removal with replacement to exact zero) and see how you like it. Major Bonkers is generally correct about the high placement of a claw mounted or side mounted 'scope. The appearance is a matter of taste, it is how they were done 'back in the day' (my cased, 1922 proofed, M1910 wears a contemporary claw mounted Gerard 'B'), not only to clear the bolt but so that one may use iron sights with 'scope attached. Joel Dorleac, who has expertly restored MS and other classic rifles / stutzen has mounted 'scopes low on MS per client specification, but the 'see through' function is lost in doing so. From anecdotes I've read, the 'continental shooter' of pre WW2 Europe was more accustomed to an upright shooting stance and was not bothered by high scope placement. It's a matter of preference.

View attachment 550675
'Scope mounted low on (post WW2) MS in '458 by Dorleac

Regardless, 'scoping an MS is a very expensive proposition that should absolutely be performed only by an expert craftsman who has successfully 'scoped many Mannlicher Schoenauers.


Back to the rifle in question:
By the photographs she appears to be a fine, completely original, Mannlicher Schoenauer M1903 stutzen (full stocked carbine) with receiver manufactured between 1924 (when 'Made In Austria' was added to front receiver bridge) and 1926 (when 'Oesterr. Waffenfabr. Ges- Steyr' was changed to 'Steyr Werke AG'). They were available with several options, including single or double - set triggers, custom barrel length, even "Stock of specially selected pretty wood", which may have been a box ticked when this one was ordered.

View attachment 550676

Commercially loaded cartridges for the 6.5X54 are generally available (Prvi Partisan) unlike the MS cartridges of 9X56 (M1905), 8X56 (M1908, or 9.5X57 (M1910) which are typically handloading propositions.

View attachment 550680

The 6.5X54 MS, as well as the others of pre M1924, will feed flawlessly when loaded with cartridges built to the precise dimensions of original DWM or Eley (Kynoch) specifications.
Cartridges function in the Schoenauer magazine as pin bearings in a race. The rotary spindle and walls of magazine housing are machined to the precise clearances of original cartridges and cartridges of shorter overall length or of different bullet profile may tend to jam, particularly if there's not enough 'meat' at the top third of the projectile.

Build them precisely like this and they'll feed like melted butter on glass:

View attachment 550681


If you purchase the arm, here's how to determine when it was proofed.
Carefully disassemble with properly fitting (thin) driver tips and find marks in this format:

View attachment 550674
The image above shows an M1903 (C 6.5 denotes 'caliber'), Steyr serial number 4143, the 411th arm to be 'Nitro Proofed' at Vienna in 1908 (411.08, NPv)


Again, guided only by the images supplied, I'd say purchase it before it gets away. If its in your budget (or you can make it happen) and you miss it, it may haunt you for years.
The pre WW2 MS are highly prized by those who know of them and the 6.5X54 is, by far, the most popular of the original MS proprietary chamberings. It was the 6.5X54 that cemented the reputation of MS as light, handy, accurate, and supremely 'pointable', seeming to nearly aim themselves when brought quickly to the shoulder ('snap shooting'). Their smoothness of function and reliability is unsurpassed.


Here is a half ton of additional information regarding der Mannlicher Schoenauer (as if you're not already 'sold'): https://www.africahunting.com/threads/mannlicher-schönauer-prewar-m1900-m1903-m1905-m1908-m1910-m1924-m1925-or-high-velocity.47277/

I was waiting for you to chime in!

 

[Dirtdart]

New England Custom Gun took care of the mounts, along with some other work on the two rifles pictured in my previous post. I don't know if Mark has retired but you will be hard pressed to find a craftsman his equal.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I almost forgot these;
Here are pages 50, 51, 52 of the 1939 Stoeger Catalog and a few images of accessory 'peep sights' that you may find to be of interest.

Note shape of trigger guards differs between single and double trigger applications on parts diagram:

Accessory sights:

Ferd and Otto:

Ritter Ferdinand von Mannlicher, Otto Schoenauer

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I was waiting for you to chime in!

Took a while to type it, I'm a tad long winded!

 

[Matthias5662]

Here's a picture for comparison of MS single and double triggers. There are differences in the length of the tang, trigger guard shape and proximity to the magazine.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Watching with interest. Don’t have one (would love to) but it seems they are finicky with bullets and feeding - meaning they do well with the original weight/RN profile but can struggle with others.

Quite correct, though various owners / shooters of them report differing experiences.

My M1910 (9.5X57 / .375 Nitro Express Rimless) is very particular regarding cartridge overall length (OAL) and bullet profile, especially the 'top third'.

I build them like this, however, and she feeds flawlessly.

If I vary much from original profile, the third cartridge loaded will jam. I can still single load cartridges of differing profile or load three RN first as place holders, top off with two that differ.

1) Cartridge from Reeds Specialties (Oklahoma, U.S.)
2) One of my old handloads (.35 Whelen through RCBS dies, trimmed to length)
3) Original DWM 531
4) My handload, fired case

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Here's a picture for comparison of MS single and double triggers. There are differences in the length of the tang, trigger guard shape and proximity to the magazine. View attachment 550696

Good stuff.

I just 'swiped' your image, may use in further posts to educate others.

Here, by the way, is a 'take down model' trigger guard: