.300 Holland & Holland / 180gr Peregrine Plains Master

[PHOENIX PHIL]

So in addition to working these Peregrines in my .300WM, I've also been working with them in my pre-64 M70 in .300H&H. I picked up this rifle a little over a year ago. The original stock was confused by a monkey thinking it was a football and had been ruined in my opinion. The gent I bought it from had a take off stock from Accurate Innovations that fit it, so I bought it too. The blueing was not in great shape either and the rear open sight lost somewhere along the line. But the rifle was a shooter. And I got it for a decent price. I subsequently had it coated and then..........barely touched it. Until lately. I had very little success with the 165gr Peregrines. Velocity was fine, but the accuracy was nothing great.

So I decided to move on to the 180's this weekend and go with a slower powder. Again the N560 as mentioned in my other .300WM thread. And I also worked with H4831. I'm happy to say it looks like the old girl likes the N560 and conversely to the .300WM gives much better velocity to the tune of about 100fps than the H4831 loads with equal or better accuracy.

71gr of Vihta Vouri N560 gave this group at roughly 3010fps. A 71.5gr load gave about 3040fps but the accuracy was not quite as good. Need to repeat this at the range and dial it in, but pretty happy with these results. Velocity was the interesting results here in comparison to my .300WM. With less powder, the velocity was about 200fps higher than the .300WM in same powder. H4831 gives better velocity in the .300WM, but still about 50-60fps slower than this load.

 

[Velo Dog]

Hi Phil,

What you have experienced is just another confirmation that the "advantages" of all the other dreaded .300 Magnums, cooked up after the original H&H version, are pretty much just excellent marketing technique, aka; sales hype.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[sierraone]

Hi Phil,

What you have experienced is just another confirmation that the "advantages" of all the other dreaded .300 Magnums, cooked up after the original H&H version, are pretty much just excellent marketing technique, aka; sales hype.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

OK VD, what are you saying?, that the .300 H&H is better or more versatile than the .300 WM? I don't own either but have wanted a H&H for some time because it is old "Africa".

 

[Shootist43]

Keep after it Phil. I like to see the "old girls" come out of the closet and do what they do best. Straight shooting, hard hitting rifles are not a modern phenomenon. Like good wine and violins, they just improve with age.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Hi Phil,

What you have experienced is just another confirmation that the "advantages" of all the other dreaded .300 Magnums, cooked up after the original H&H version, are pretty much just excellent marketing technique, aka; sales hype.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

It was certainly a surprise to see I could get better performance out of the .300H&H as it really makes no sense. The loading books only affirm that the H&H should not be able to do this. But it's clear that those books are for overall general information.

This rifle of mine has been a bit of a challenge. To the point I was starting to think I may have made a mistake, much to my disappointment as this was my first pre-64. But it would appear I just wasn't feeding it what it likes, which would appear to be slower burning powder with middle to heavier bullets. Perhaps due to the longer narrower cartridge design?

All that said, whichever one of my sons ends up with my .300WM M70 SG, is getting a great rifle too. I've now got accurate loads for it in 165, 180 and 200gr pills. That rifle I would put against any pre-64, including the two I now own, for silky smooth feeding. I absolutely love that rifle too.

It's good to have options!

 

[Velo Dog]

OK VD, what are you saying?, that the .300 H&H is better or more versatile than the .300 WM? I don't own either but have wanted a H&H for some time because it is old "Africa".

Hi Sierraone,

I don't know if "better" is the right word but, neither do any of the others that arrived later appear significantly "better" than the original.
IMO - all the other .300 Magnums, announced after 1920 ("birthdate" of the original H&H version), are nothing more than efforts to re-invent the wheel.
I other words, not one of the latter .300 magnums fit into any significant role / solve any antelope, deer, elk, caribou, moose, bear, sheep, boar, goat, etc., hunting dilemma, that the H&H doesn't already fit / solve well.
Definitely the Winchester and somewhat the Weatherby versions are however roaring retail successes.
And, myself being a Capitalist and all, I applaud their commercial success.
(except the part about .300 H&H live factory ammunition being less common on sporting goods and gun store shelves these days).

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[rookhawk]

As usual, I align to the other gents on this thread. The 300hh is a great rifle caliber and it will always be superior to alternates for one big reason: the cartridge has a long neck that doesn't often jam which is very handy when you may need to protect yourself from DG.

I found 180gr to be a minimum and that the rifle sings in 200-220gr bullets. A 240gr also exists for close work on bigger game.

If 300hh isn't enough, then a 300 isn't enough. Go for a 318-8mm-338, if those aren't enough, 375hh, if not enough go 404j, if not enough, 470, if not enough, hunt something else.

 

[Clayton]

New and Improved are all too often no more than just words. Frequently they are applied to something attempting to solving a problem that doesn't exist in the first place.

 

[rookhawk]

New and Improved are all too often no more than just words. Frequently they are applied to something attempting to solving a problem that doesn't exist in the first place.

Hah. Yes. Like Short Mags, Ultra Short Mags, WSSM, S&M, S&P, ICUP, DOULIKEME and so forth. I'm astounded at the amount of wheel reinvention that happens. You'd think that there would be justifiable worry that the next great thing becomes a rare bird nearly impossible to find ammunition for with regularity.

300H&H still has 6 different factory loads from Nosler alone a century after its invitation. Not sure I'd like to chance a new retread of the proven classic.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Hah. Yes. Like Short Mags, Ultra Short Mags, WSSM, S&M, S&P, ICUP, DOULIKEME and so forth. I'm astounded at the amount of wheel reinvention that happens. You'd think that there would be justifiable worry that the next great thing becomes a rare bird nearly impossible to find ammunition for with regularity.

300H&H still has 6 different factory loads from Nosler alone a century after its invitation. Not sure I'd like to chance a new retread of the proven classic.

I'll keep my .300WM in my built in the last few years M70 SG thank you very much. As mentioned that rifle does everything as well as the two pre-64's I have from a functional point of view. And I've also got a 165gr accurate load which I haven't found in the. 300H&H yet.

The fact there may be a whopping 6 different factory loads means nothing to me. You have no idea what powder those loads are using and the bullet choices are likely limited too. I wouldn't know as I develop my own loads. The factory is going to create a load that works the best in multiple rifles and I'm guessing that's a combination of velocity and accuracy, but with an emphasis on accuracy. It's really rather few shooters that actually own a chronograph. But all of them can see how the bullets print.

The only reason my .300H&H is outperforming the .300WM at this point is I found the right powder to work with it. Am I thrilled? Sure I am, especially after a fair amount of initial disappointment. Is it better than a .300WM? Depends on your definition of better, which is going to be quite subjective.

 

[rookhawk]

Phil,

Have you consdieted twist rate and seated depth? I've seen many 300WM that likes 165 to 180 bullets but it doesn't mean yours might want to eat 220s? Have you checked the land depth to load longer or shorter? Might make a difference.

You should have great luck with bullet options since both shoot all the same stuff, but the 300HH can also shoot the 240 and 250 the 300WM cannot due to OAL/feed issues.

Keep us abreast of your tinkering, there is always a lesson to learn from experimentation.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil,

Have you consdieted twist rate and seated depth? I've seen many 300WM that likes 165 to 180 bullets but it doesn't mean yours might want to eat 220s? Have you checked the land depth to load longer or shorter? Might make a difference.

You should have great luck with bullet options since both shoot all the same stuff, but the 300HH can also shoot the 240 and 250 the 300WM cannot due to OAL/feed issues.

Keep us abreast of your tinkering, there is always a lesson to learn from experimentation.

I may be mistaken but I believe the twist rate for my .300H&H is 1:10" which matches what I know is the twist rate for my .300WM. Had the .300H&H twist rate been faster, I could see why it might not shoot lighter bullets better. Saw that before with a .223 I had.

The .300WM likes bullets seated a bit longer, but due to magazine restriction I can only go 0.020" longer than the 3.34" SAAMI standard. But the meager 20 thousandths makes a big difference. The .300H&H that I have basically limits me to 3.6", the magazine again being the restriction.

Not sure why the .300WM won't shoot 240 or 250gr bullets due to feeding issues, ogive? I've fed it 220gr Partitions, but really that was just for giggles. The .300WM will shoot a 200gr North Fork bonded core at 2800fps. I used that load to take an eland a few years back. Quartering away shot into the boiler room. Bullet found under skin in offside. Final bullet weight was some 195gr plus. What would a 240/250gr bullet offer me?

Furthermore a quick perusal of some of the major bullet manufacturers, I only found that Woodleigh offered .308 bullets in weights greater than 220gr. And only Nosler offered bullets in addition, greater than 200gr. I didn't see any 250gr versions, nor would I even bother to tinker with them. I've got a 250gr load for my .375H&H that zips along at 2800fps or so. Lower sectional density? Sure, but it's a bigger hole too.

I will definitely try the 200gr North Forks in the .300H&H. Who knows, maybe I'll get 2900fps versus the 2800fps the .300WM shoots?

 

[PaulT]

Are the wheels of today identical to the very first that was invented ?
I doubt it.
They have changed.
Are they "improved", maybe, maybe not, that's debatable.
Has the wheel been re-invented because it is different ?
Are we poorer for having it being improved/changed ?

Cartridges have evolved for numerous reasons.
Sure, the sceptic in most of us will point to the commercial angle, but they have also evolved to cycle through shorter/longer actions, smaller/larger bolt-faces, stack differently in magazines and create different capacity to bore ratios for various reasons and purposes, amongst other reasons.
Not to say one is either better or worse than the other, just different.

What puzzles me is the "nostalgic's" rule of measure of the value of various cartridges.
Exactly how old does a cartridge need to be before it is considered a "classic" or and "African Classic" or a "nostalgic "cartridge" or an "African" cartridge and exactly who got to decide ?

Sorry for the hi-jack Phil, but this has puzzled me for a while.

I personally own a .300 Win mag and find it to be an exceptionally useful cartridge, but in saying that I also have no prejudice against the H&H version or the WSM version or even the RUM version.
If I were to be building a light-weight mountain rifle i'd probably go the WSM where the platform will be shorter and lighter.
If I was a dedicated Elk hunter wanting to maximize my opportunities I might go the RUM, or the Win, or the H&H.
It's wonderful to have options that create an opportunity to build or oven buy something that may be task specific and fill a niche need.

Just my thoughts, nothing more.

Again, apologies for the hi-jack.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I though I'd give a quick update on this load. It was coming up on Christmas when I got this load working and intended on going back to the range to see if it repeated. Between show season, work and being a dad, it sure has been a fast first four months of the year. But I did finally make it back trying a few tenths above and below and right at 71gr of N560. I'm happy to say it repeated. Right at 1" accuracy at 71gr, and close to the same on the other loads. So 71gr will for this bullet will the one.