338-06 Cutting Edge Bullets for Plains Game?

[eloudamy]

I will be taking my 338-06 to SA for a trip in the next year or so and I’m trying to decide which bullet to shoot in it. There are several like Partitions, TTSX, and A-frames but I’m also considering the frangible bullets, specifically the Cutting Edge Maximus.

Has anyone used these or other “frangible” bullets on PG and how did they perform?

One thread said go light for caliber because the Cutting Edge bullet perform differently than conventional or TSX style bullets. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks in advance for your perspectives.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I will be taking my 338-06 to SA for a trip in the next year or so and I’m trying to decide which bullet to shoot in it. There are several like Partitions, TTSX, and A-frames but I’m also considering the frangible bullets, specifically the Cutting Edge Maximus.

Has anyone used these or other “frangible” bullets on PG and how did they perform?

One thread said go light for caliber because the Cutting Edge bullet perform differently than conventional or TSX style bullets. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks in advance for your perspectives.

Welcome to AH! The CEB bullets do perform differently in that they're designed to shed several pieces from the front that act like cutting blades moving outwards from the shank as they come off of it. This creates a number of secondary wounds and overall from my experience these bullets are just devastating.

They are an all brass or copper bullet depending on what you buy. As such they're longer and a lighter bullet is called for so that it's length is more comparable to a conventional lead bullet in a larger weight. This is needed to stabilize the bullet.

For example if shooting a .30-06, you wouldn't want to try and shoot an all brass 180gr or even 165gr bullet as you will not get enough velocity with a standard twist rate to stabilize the bullet and accuracy will suffer.

 

[264]

I run the TTSX,160 gr out of my win 338-06 it has worked well on large boars and small buff.
The other rem 338-06 is set up for 185gr GMX. Like the performance of these on game and have taken some nice animals with them. Found them to be to hard on brumbies but awesome on small bulls and cows.
If I was going to do Africa plains I would use the GMX or the 185TTSX.
For a conventional projectile the 200 woodleigh PPSN would be a good choice.
Heres a few pics cheers Mick
cow raking shot 50m down in 50m win 338-06 160 TTSX

young boar ham to opposite side shoulder 160 TTSX 40m running

recovered 160gr TTSX boar above

raking running shot 80m 160 TTSX recovered off side shoulder

160 TTSX boar above

185 GMX 18m x2 down in 35 m not recovered rem 338-06

185 GMX out of a large boar 40m both shoulders drop on spot

boar above

tried the 180 woodleighs open too quick, boar running back head at 20m rem 700

 

[ldmay375]

Those GMX’s appear to have performed very well. Thanks for the pictures.

 

[eloudamy]

264
Thanks so much for the great information. I was hoping to find real-world experience and examples and your history with this cartridge and bullets is exactly what I’d hoped. The text AND the pics give me great confidence.

I had a 338-06 several years back and decided to sell it. I miss the caliber but not the rifle. I now have a beautiful 98 Mauser (currently in 280) and it will soon be wearing a 338-06 barrel. I look forward it.
Thanks again

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Where is @michael458 ? He is the cutting edge expert.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

…. I’m trying to decide which bullet to shoot in it. There are several like Partitions, TTSX, and A-frames but I’m also considering the frangible bullets, specifically the Cutting Edge Maximus.

What are your objectives for a bullet? What type of performance do you want?

A TTSX and a frangible bullet are at opposite ends of the performance spectrum. A TTSX is going to hold together and penetrate deep, with a relatively narrow but long wound channel. A frangible bullet is going to give a relatively wide, shallow wound channel.

In my yard, I know I’ll be shooting a small whitetail and might be happy to use a fragile bullet chosen for best performance on a broadside shot and wait for the optimal positioning. If I’m traveling halfway across the world where I might shoot an impala broadside or a frontal shot on an eland, I want something that holds together and penetrates deep. The cutting edge is supposed to give the best of both worlds. It may, but I reflexively walk away from anything that sounds like a free lunch.

 

[375Fox]

I started trying to find some information on these myself when I saw this post. This thread came up from couple weeks ago, some good information.

Cutting Edge Bullets

Those of you with experience with cutting edge bullets how did you find accuracy? Thanks.

www.africahunting.com

 

[michael458]

Where is @michael458 ? He is the cutting edge expert.

Yep... I am here..........

Raptors......... DEADLY........ extreme trauma inflicting bullets.........ETIB...... At 1.5-2 inches penetration, 6 blades shear from the main bullet simultaneously, for the first few inches of penetration the 6 blades are very close to the main center bullet. At this point tissue is expanding away from center, the blades are slicing and dicing the tissue, making wound channel larger, with larger caliber bullets the blades begin to move away from center, at this point they become secondary projectiles slicing tissue, blood vessels, vital organs and anything else they come in contact with. This is why there is so much blood associated with these bullets. All the while, the center remaining bullet is a full caliber flat nose solid, with jagged edges, it continues straight on course. The center bullet will out penetrate all common premium expanding bullets, and exits most animals.

It does not matter from .224 caliber to .620 caliber all Raptors react exactly the same, regardless of the medium as long as it is aqueous. I have used them in the field extensively on everything from impala to buffalo and even hippo...... Results are the same every single time.

The Maximus is a copper bullet, Raptors are mostly Brass..... I have the most experience with the Brass Raptors. In test work the Maximus is very good, and reacts basically close to the same, it is a devastating bullet, but in my opinion the brass Raptor is a step ahead when inflicting trauma and tissue destruction.

You want light for caliber, and do not be fooled by conventional wisdom... to give you an example, you might understand... in tests done here, in .308 Caliber.... the 100 gr Flat Base Raptor in 300 Winchester at 3800 fps is equal in Penetration to a 200 Swift A Frame...... Equal. However, the Swift is WAY BEHIND the Raptor with tissue destruction..........

338-06, I think there is a 176 ER Raptor, this might be a good start, I personally would like it better if it were anything from 150-170 Flat Base Raptor....... I see the 175 Maximus, if one could not get the velocity from the 176 ER desired....

Raptors are the most wicked trauma inflicting bullet you can ever use in the field. Beware however, they do not tolerate brush at all.

 

[michael458]

A TTSX and a frangible bullet are at opposite ends of the performance spectrum. A TTSX is going to hold together and penetrate deep, with a relatively narrow but long wound channel. A frangible bullet is going to give a relatively wide, shallow wound channel.

This is incorrect. A Raptor is not a Frangible Bullet that is in your thought process... Not a Nosler Ballistic tip that is going to go all to hell........ A totally different concept... No offense intended, just do not put the Raptor in those terms......... A Raptor will out penetrate a TSX or similar ever single time....

Read my post on how this works.

 

[Jörg Krüger]

@michael458
eg the 300 Winmag, does a person have to run those velocities? I guess not, but am curious.
Another question, how do the raptors react when a PG is shot on the shoulder like most of our PG gets shot?

 

[michael458]

eg the 300 Winmag, does a person have to run those velocities? I guess not, but am curious.

You can run them anything you want...... Raptors like velocity, more velocity, more of everything.......There is no upper end that shoulder fired sporting rifles can reach. The bullet will do exactly what it does, down to around 1600-1700 fps, normally low end shear velocity.

Shoulder shots, exactly as I described above, some of the smaller caliber blades may get tied up, but most will go through with the bullet, smaller caliber blades tend to ride closer to the bullet than big bore blades.........

I have a lot of our local guys here in SC that use the 100 FB Raptors .308 caliber, in 300BLK, 7.62X40, 308 Winchester...... The 300 BLK and 7.62X40 are just incredible for kids, and the grown ups use these and or 308 Winchester, to date there have been at least a 100 deer taken, one large alligator, one 350 lb Black Bear, a piles of hogs...... None of them have brought home any bullets, all pass through, and only one deer made 5 steps from POI. The Black Bear was taken by a 10 year old with 300 BLK, it was DRT on the spot as well, and shoulder shot, no bullet recovered, exited........

I used the 200 gr .366 caliber Raptor in Africa on everything from impala to Zebra with incredible success, no bullets recovered, not even from angled shots. Running 2900 fps in 19 inch gun I found that 50% of the Oryz and Wildebeest dropped to the shot DRT. 50% ran about 25 yards and down. Zebra, different story, they ran like hell until every drop of blood in their bodies sprayed the country side, and there was a lot of it...... Internals were incredible........

Still, I like larger calibers much much better........... Even Zebra can't take larger caliber Raptors......

 

[Bert the Turtle]

This is incorrect. A Raptor is not a Frangible Bullet that is in your thought process... Not a Nosler Ballistic tip that is going to go all to hell........ A totally different concept... No offense intended, just do not put the Raptor in those terms......... A Raptor will out penetrate a TSX or similar ever single time....

Read my post on how this works.

No offense taken. I quoted the original poster. He said he was also considering frangible bullets. I never said a raptor was frangible. I only said they (cutting edge) claim to have the best of both worlds (ie broad wound channel and deep penetration). And that I’m generally wary of things that sound like a free lunch.


A raptor is basically a modern version of a partition- a front that shears off to cause a cone of damage (in the case of a raptor, specifically controlled copper fragments rather than random lead as in a partition) with a base that stays together to penetrate. Perfectly reasonable bullet design.

 

[michael458]

No offense taken. I quoted the original poster. He said he was also considering frangible bullets. I never said a raptor was frangible. I only said they (cutting edge) claim to have the best of both worlds (ie broad wound channel and deep penetration). And that I’m generally wary of things that sound like a free lunch.

Very Excellent Bert........I too am very wary of "Magic Bullets"....... I've killed about everything worth killing with most of the available bullets worth having, and found out a long time ago, sometimes those "Magic Bullets" did not always work their Magic.............

After many years of testing, many years of field testing, and many 1000s on top of thousands of Raptors shot, they are about as close as anything I have ever seen to being that "Magic Bullet"........and it was not always so. In the beginning, I was still hard core conventional wisdom. I could not see how a bullet that sheds weight, breaks apart could be anything but a failure. Things started to show up in the test work here, horrendous destruction of medium and somehow penetration was DEEP, way deeper than what you would think, in fact it was insane......... The more I tested, the more I learned. Then after taking them to the field and working with them in animal tissue, I was seeing exactly the same sort of behavior as in the lab and test medium....... everything started to click and everything started to make logical sense to me....... Through both the test work in the beginning, then studying the behavior of the bullet in the field we learned what was happening with them and how they worked.

Today, one of the best ways you can see and understand how a Raptor works is to go and look at some of the tests done in ballistic gel on the CEB Website.........or search for some....

 

[zephyr]

Shot a cow elk broadside with CEB's 176gr ER Raptor at approx 125 yards with my 338 win mag. she took a handful of steps wobbled for a bit then fell over backward. On the snow where she stood was a rope of blood three feet long where she bled out standing up. Have shot many animals big and small dangerous and not so with CEB bullets, heading back to the Dark Continent nect year and CEB bullets will be with me

 

[Brian]

My limited experience with CEB Raptors in Africa on plains game and buffalo, from 30-30 Winchester to 500-110 Winchester is exactly as Michael458 describes above.

These Raptors are a paradigm shift in bullet design and performance. It's understandable that hunters who have not used Raptors are somewhat sceptical about how well they kill. You just can't compare them with conventional bullets.

Also, I have found CEB Solids to give deep, straight penetration with a wide permanent wound channel. Brian

 

[375Fox]

Yep... I am here..........

Raptors......... DEADLY........ extreme trauma inflicting bullets.........ETIB...... At 1.5-2 inches penetration, 6 blades shear from the main bullet simultaneously, for the first few inches of penetration the 6 blades are very close to the main center bullet. At this point tissue is expanding away from center, the blades are slicing and dicing the tissue, making wound channel larger, with larger caliber bullets the blades begin to move away from center, at this point they become secondary projectiles slicing tissue, blood vessels, vital organs and anything else they come in contact with. This is why there is so much blood associated with these bullets. All the while, the center remaining bullet is a full caliber flat nose solid, with jagged edges, it continues straight on course. The center bullet will out penetrate all common premium expanding bullets, and exits most animals.

It does not matter from .224 caliber to .620 caliber all Raptors react exactly the same, regardless of the medium as long as it is aqueous. I have used them in the field extensively on everything from impala to buffalo and even hippo...... Results are the same every single time.

The Maximus is a copper bullet, Raptors are mostly Brass..... I have the most experience with the Brass Raptors. In test work the Maximus is very good, and reacts basically close to the same, it is a devastating bullet, but in my opinion the brass Raptor is a step ahead when inflicting trauma and tissue destruction.

You want light for caliber, and do not be fooled by conventional wisdom... to give you an example, you might understand... in tests done here, in .308 Caliber.... the 100 gr Flat Base Raptor in 300 Winchester at 3800 fps is equal in Penetration to a 200 Swift A Frame...... Equal. However, the Swift is WAY BEHIND the Raptor with tissue destruction..........

338-06, I think there is a 176 ER Raptor, this might be a good start, I personally would like it better if it were anything from 150-170 Flat Base Raptor....... I see the 175 Maximus, if one could not get the velocity from the 176 ER desired....

Raptors are the most wicked trauma inflicting bullet you can ever use in the field. Beware however, they do not tolerate brush at all.

I’ve been researching these bullets last night and today since I saw this thread. My PH had positive things to say about them on hunt I just finished. The videos are interesting and your photos of internal damage on other thread is really impressive. Question on the fragments, how far do they penetrate on something with heavier bones like a zebra or an eland? Or shoulder on a buffalo? I was thinking the design would be particularly bad with brush then saw your comment, do you think they begin to fragment on grass or brush?

 

[375Fox]

My limited experience with CEB Raptors in Africa on plains game and buffalo, from 30-30 Winchester to 500-110 Winchester is exactly as Michael458 describes above.

These Raptors are a paradigm shift in bullet design and performance. It's understandable that hunters who have not used Raptors are somewhat sceptical about how well they kill. You just can't compare them with conventional bullets.

Also, I have found CEB Solids to give deep, straight penetration with a wide permanent wound channel. Brian

I was typing as you posted. On your buffalo, how far did you see the fragments penetrate on shoulder shot?

 

[Brian]

375Fox, Good question.
On all 3 buffalo ( Broad side double lung shoulder shots.) The blades sliced and diced through the vital organs. All 3 buffalo were dead right there. They just took a few steps, lowered their heads and went down, unceremoniously. Brian

 

[michael458]

Question on the fragments, how far do they penetrate on something with heavier bones like a zebra or an eland? Or shoulder on a buffalo?

Blades...... They are blades because they slice and dice....... not fragmented at all.... penetration of the blades depend on caliber, larger caliber, larger blades............ Blades that shear from most calibers that you will shoot zebra/eland with, will be caught up in the chest cavity slicing and dicing organ tissue, and vessels and other tissue. Large caliber blades might make it to the far rib cage on zebra....

Shoulder shot buffalo blades will be found in the chest cavity, same as described above, I have found them mixed in with the goo left from internal organs.......... The main bullet exits broadside easy.....

Smaller animals 250 lbs or so, then you can see large caliber blades actually exit far side broadside shots, normally 10-12 inches from center bullet.... 458 caliber +...............

I was thinking the design would be particularly bad with brush then saw your comment, do you think they begin to fragment on grass or brush?

Very small caliber might 224 high velocity but maybe just a chance of it, not larger calibers they are not that fragile...... it takes hydraulics to cause shear........