338. for Lion?

[WilhelmM]

I've been wondering this for a while since the 338. is the most popular calibre for Alaskan brown bears, wouldn't it be sensical to perhaps use it for lion too? Of course, a lion is much faster than a brown bear however with an accurate, mortal shot, wouldn't it be enough to take down a lion? Obviously, our forefathers spent their entire lives in the bush and would probably know more than anyone on a hunting forum, but with the new drastically improved ammunition that is now widely available to the general public, would it be plausible to bring down the legal minimum from 375. to 338. or would that be asking for trouble? Hell, the 30-06 has become very popular with leopard in Namibia and Zimbabwe so maybe it wouldn't be too foolish to use common North American calibres. Feel free to give your thoughts and opinions.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

In Zimbabwe Lion, Eland & Giraffe fall under Schedule Part B, requiring a minimum rifled bore size of Seven MM (.275) in diameter with not less than four comma three kilojoules (3172 ft/lbs). In my humble opinion .338 is a excellent caliber for Lion with the proper expanding bullets.

As always proper bullet placement is of number one importance.

 

[Nhoro]

I agree with Lon, it is a good calibre for lion. A relatively high velocity as compared to large bores so it will expand quicker which is an advantage for lion as they don't have the big bones and heavy mass of buffalo and elephant. So pick a relatively quick expanding soft.

 

[mark-hunter]

It will depend from country to country.
I will qoute from another source, as follows:

The minimum caliber that should be used for lion hunting is .338, but in many countries the law sets the minimum at .375 calibers. A .375 or a .416 are good choices for hunting the king of the jungle! Good quality softpoint bullets that will expand rather quickly are the bullet of choice for lion hunting. A good scope is essential for many of the low light shots that occur over bait when lion hunting. Follow-up of a wounded lion is a different story. Calibers heavier than .400 are recommended and you may notice that your PH will likely have an express sighted heavy caliber double barrel as his weapon of choice for backup.

 

[Ike85123]

My Father and uncle moved to Africa right after ww2. They had a 303 and a 30-06. They picked up a 500 after arriving, but only used it for elephant and rhino.
Not sure when thr caliber requirements started?
But apparently smaller can do the job.

 

[C.W. Richter]

A square used to manufacture very specific bullets for this purpose in 338 among other calibers called lion load. I wish they were still around! High velocity low SD thin jacketed bullets work wonders on lion. Cats have that interesting nervous system that can essentially be turned off upon impact with the right shot placement and bullet choice. I believe a hot 358 was also a popular choice for lion once upon a time.

 

[mark-hunter]

Not sure when thr caliber requirements started?

With process of de-colonisation.

When the countries became independent, they implemented varoius rules, including minimum caliber requirements.
National proffesional hunters assosiations played a part in defining minimum calibers (they dont want clients to shoot DG with some peashooters)

After ww2.. o man, in that time africa was trully wild, in some countries even a commercial ivory hunting was allowed, (shoot ele, sell the ivory)
Different time. Unimaginable, from our place and our time.

(I would love to be able to hunt Ivory an make some money of it to cover safari expenses, legally. Today, unimaginable!!!!)

As the ivory hunting was banned from country to country, sport hunting was allowed and regulated , and with regulating the sport hunting, minimum caliber requirements for sportsmen hunters were established, in time.
But I am sure, just as the poaching cannot be stopped, same is with 303 and similar calibers, Who can control even today , what calibers some local farmers use, or what local people use for this or that in rural ares, in the lack of any better calibers.

 

[lwaters]

I wonder if the 225 grain nosler partition would work? I bet it would exit on a broadside shot.

 

[Riksa]

Interesting to see this discussion. I'm planning to use 230gr Norma Oryx in .338 Win Mag in my coming Lion hunt.

Norma Oryx .338 Winchester Magnum 230gr

www.norma-ammunition.com

Oryx is quite soft and opens fast. It worked well on Leopard so hopefully it works well also with Lion. Usually I go for heavier 275gr Swift A-Frame or 250gr Barnes TSX, but for thin skinned Lion I'd like something that opens and flies faster.

 

[IvW]

Will absolutely get the job done with the right bullet and shooter, however I would not have one in my hands when following up a wounded lion or when hunting one on foot.....

 

[Jonathan Kashouty]

338 with a Barnes 225 grain TTSX and of course the correct shot placement will get it done.

 

[Professor Mawla]

The .338 Winchester Magnum is an absolutely adequate calibre for African lions ( provided that initial shot placement is critical ) . My close friend , Mr. John Coleman ( a retired South African professional hunter with more than six decades experience in hunting dangerous game ) has used his custom built .338 Winchester Magnum ( built on a pre 1962 control round feed Fabrique Nationale Mauser Model 98 action ) to lay low African lions by the hundreds ( in Zambia , Rhodesia and Mozambique ) . His preferred bullet is the 250 grain Nosler Partition soft nosed factory loads .

However , John always prefers his .458 Winchester Magnum ( a pre 64 Winchester Model 70 ‘ African ‘ ) for following up wounded lions .

On a related subject ; My close friend , Mr. Shafiq Gazi ( a retired forest guard who used to work for the Sundarban Forest Department ) actually killed two Royal Bengal tigers in 1966 and 1967 by using a visiting hunter’s .338 Winchester Magnum ( a Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle ) . His preferred bullet for Royal Bengal tigers is the 300 grain Winchester Power Point ( which is unfortunately now discontinued ) .

 

[C.W. Richter]

The .338 Winchester Magnum is an absolutely adequate calibre for African lions ( provided that initial shot placement is critical ) . My close friend , Mr. John Coleman ( a retired South African professional hunter with more than six decades experience in hunting dangerous game ) has used his custom built .338 Winchester Magnum ( built on a pre 1962 control round feed Fabrique Nationale Mauser Model 98 action ) to lay low African lions by the hundreds ( in Zambia , Rhodesia and Mozambique ) . His preferred bullet is the 250 grain Nosler Partition soft nosed factory loads .

However , John always prefers his .458 Winchester Magnum ( a pre 64 Winchester Model 70 ‘ African ‘ ) for following up wounded lions .

On a related subject ; My close friend , Mr. Shafiq Gazi ( a retired forest guard who used to work for the Sundarban Forest Department ) actually killed two Royal Bengal tigers in 1966 and 1967 by using a visiting hunter’s .338 Winchester Magnum ( a Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle ) . His preferred bullet for Royal Bengal tigers is the 300 grain Winchester Power Point ( which is unfortunately now discontinued ) .

I have a few Dusty boxes left of Barnes original 300 grain soft points. These would certainly do the trick as well! Many professionals simply recommend 250 grain traditional leaded soft point bullets or if you can get your hands on the first generation nosler ballistic tip the jacket is rather thin so performance on cats is good. I'm not sure if I want to be the first guinea pig or lab rat but I suspect Berger Target bullets would perform well on cats. I experimented with them early on deer and the resultant wound was akin to a close range shotgun blast. The bullet literally fragmented into a dozen pieces upon impact but the depth of penetration on a 450 lb sturdily built animal is what's at question.

 

[Dr Ray]

I wonder if the 225 grain nosler partition would work? I bet it would exit on a broadside shot.

225 grain 338 has the best ballistics and energy and I would any of those Bullets in 225 grains and heavier will exit.
Lighter Bullets can be driven very fast but I suspect that they might not be as effective on those muscle bound lions compared to the 225s and above.

 

[One Day...]

Classic discussion...

Some countries allow it (Zimbabwe, Mozambique) but several countries require .375 caliber as a minimum legal for dangerous game (Botswana, some South Africa Provinces, Tanzania, Zambia, Central African Republic); a few others .354 (Cameroon) or .366/9.3 mm (Zimbabwe for Elephant, Hippo and Buffalo); and Namibia requires 5,400 Joules for all dangerous game.

In truth:

1) The .338 with proper bullets will absolutely do the job on a lion.

2) No dangerous game will ever differentiate between a .358 (e.g. the excellent .358 Norma Magnum) a .366 (e.g. the excellent 9.3x64 Brenneke; the eminently shootable and barely sufficient - but sufficient indeed - 9.3x62 Mauser; or the newer 9.3x66 Sako), and a .375 of appropriate power (e.g. H&H, Wby, Ruger, etc. but excluding .375 Win - and the .378 Wby lives in a different world) when used with bullets of proper weight and construction adapted for the animal at hand.

3) No lion will ever differentiate between Zimbabwe's 4,300 Joules (3,170 ft./lbs.) rule that makes the .338 legal for Lion, and Namibia's 5,400 Joules (3,982 ft./lbs.) rule for all DG, that makes the .338 Win mag "technically" illegal there for a Game Department official intent on ruining your day (225 gr @ 2,800 ft./s = 3,916 ft./lbs. - for those who believe in speed for DG; and 250 gr @ 2,660 ft./s = 3,927 ft./lbs. - for those who believe in weight for DG). Not that a Lion would care either way...

My own view...

If paper requirements did not exist, my own medium-large favorite bore would be the .340 Wby that hits on DG like Thor's own hammer with 250/275 gr AFrame or 250/285 TSX; penetrates like crazy with 250 gr Peregrine monolithic solid; and shoots on PG like a laser beam with 210 gr TTSX, darn near as flat as a .257 Wby, which is no faint praise and which no .375, H&H or souped-up Wby, can do...

As it is, and as much as I love the .340 Wby, I keep it for Moose in Alaska, and pack a .375 H&H Blaser R8 barrel (although the temptation to rim it to .375 Wby is always there) to Africa because I just do not have the patience anymore to go through the arguing with the local Game Warden...

 

[Professor Mawla]

Classic discussion...

Some countries allow it (Zimbabwe, Mozambique) but several countries require .375 caliber as a minimum legal for dangerous game (Botswana, some South Africa Provinces, Tanzania, Zambia, Central African Republic); a few others .354 (Cameroon) or .366/9.3 mm (Zimbabwe for Elephant, Hippo and Buffalo); and Namibia requires 5,400 Joules for all dangerous game.

In truth:

1) The .338 with proper bullets will absolutely do the job on a lion.

2) No dangerous game will ever differentiate between a .358 (e.g. the excellent .358 Norma Magnum) a .366 (e.g. the excellent 9.3x64 Brenneke; the eminently shootable and barely sufficient - but sufficient indeed - 9.3x62 Mauser; or the newer 9.3x66 Sako), and a .375 of appropriate power (e.g. H&H, Wby, Ruger, etc. but excluding .375 Win - and the .378 Wby lives in a different world) when used with bullets of proper weight and construction adapted for the animal at hand.

3) No lion will ever differentiate between Zimbabwe's 4,300 Joules (3,170 ft./lbs.) rule that makes the .338 legal for Lion, and Namibia's 5,400 Joules (3,982 ft./lbs.) rule for all DG, that makes the .338 Win mag "technically" illegal there for a Game Department official intent on ruining your day (225 gr @ 2,800 ft./s = 3,916 ft./lbs. - for those who believe in speed for DG; and 250 gr @ 2,660 ft./s = 3,927 ft./lbs. - for those who believe in weight for DG). Not that a Lion would care either way...

My own view...

If paper requirements did not exist, my own medium-large favorite bore would be the .340 Wby that hits on DG like Thor's own hammer with 250/275 gr AFrame or 250/285 TSX; penetrates like crazy with 250 gr Peregrine monolithic solid; and shoots on PG like a laser beam with 210 gr TTSX, darn near as flat as a .257 Wby, which is no faint praise and which no .375, H&H or souped-up Wby, can do...

As it is, and as much as I love the .340 Wby, I keep it for Moose in Alaska, and pack a .375 H&H Blaser R8 barrel (although the temptation to rim it to .375 Wby is always there) to Africa because I just do not have the patience anymore to go through the arguing with the local Game Warden...

@One Day...
Would you happen to know when Zambia set the minimum legal dangerous game calibre as .375 bore ? John sent me an article of a .338 Winchester Magnum being used for lion hunting in Zambia . But this was during the 1970s . I take that the law has changed since then ?

 

[C.W. Richter]

Classic discussion...

Some countries allow it (Zimbabwe, Mozambique) but several countries require .375 caliber as a minimum legal for dangerous game (Botswana, some South Africa Provinces, Tanzania, Zambia, Central African Republic); a few others .354 (Cameroon) or .366/9.3 mm (Zimbabwe for Elephant, Hippo and Buffalo); and Namibia requires 5,400 Joules for all dangerous game.

In truth:

1) The .338 with proper bullets will absolutely do the job on a lion.

2) No dangerous game will ever differentiate between a .358 (e.g. the excellent .358 Norma Magnum) a .366 (e.g. the excellent 9.3x64 Brenneke; the eminently shootable and barely sufficient - but sufficient indeed - 9.3x62 Mauser; or the newer 9.3x66 Sako), and a .375 of appropriate power (e.g. H&H, Wby, Ruger, etc. but excluding .375 Win - and the .378 Wby lives in a different world) when used with bullets of proper weight and construction adapted for the animal at hand.

3) No lion will ever differentiate between Zimbabwe's 4,300 Joules (3,170 ft./lbs.) rule that makes the .338 legal for Lion, and Namibia's 5,400 Joules (3,982 ft./lbs.) rule for all DG, that makes the .338 Win mag "technically" illegal there for a Game Department official intent on ruining your day (225 gr @ 2,800 ft./s = 3,916 ft./lbs. - for those who believe in speed for DG; and 250 gr @ 2,660 ft./s = 3,927 ft./lbs. - for those who believe in weight for DG). Not that a Lion would care either way...

My own view...

If paper requirements did not exist, my own medium-large favorite bore would be the .340 Wby that hits on DG like Thor's own hammer with 250/275 gr AFrame or 250/285 TSX; penetrates like crazy with 250 gr Peregrine monolithic solid; and shoots on PG like a laser beam with 210 gr TTSX, darn near as flat as a .257 Wby, which is no faint praise and which no .375, H&H or souped-up Wby, can do...

As it is, and as much as I love the .340 Wby, I keep it for Moose in Alaska, and pack a .375 H&H Blaser R8 barrel (although the temptation to rim it to .375 Wby is always there) to Africa because I just do not have the patience anymore to go through the arguing with the local Game Warden...

Better yet one of the big case 338 a square 338 378 r u m pick your poison they are all in the 6,000 ft lb region with the proper bullet but lower SD slightly less Mass bullets work better on cats as they expend more energy inside the animal and waste less simply poking through...

 

[curtism1234]

Idk, it seems silly to require the same minimum for a 400-500 pound animal as a 1500-2000 pound animal.

 

[bruce moulds]

Classic discussion...

Some countries allow it (Zimbabwe, Mozambique) but several countries require .375 caliber as a minimum legal for dangerous game (Botswana, some South Africa Provinces, Tanzania, Zambia, Central African Republic); a few others .354 (Cameroon) or .366/9.3 mm (Zimbabwe for Elephant, Hippo and Buffalo); and Namibia requires 5,400 Joules for all dangerous game.

In truth:

1) The .338 with proper bullets will absolutely do the job on a lion.

2) No dangerous game will ever differentiate between a .358 (e.g. the excellent .358 Norma Magnum) a .366 (e.g. the excellent 9.3x64 Brenneke; the eminently shootable and barely sufficient - but sufficient indeed - 9.3x62 Mauser; or the newer 9.3x66 Sako), and a .375 of appropriate power (e.g. H&H, Wby, Ruger, etc. but excluding .375 Win - and the .378 Wby lives in a different world) when used with bullets of proper weight and construction adapted for the animal at hand.

3) No lion will ever differentiate between Zimbabwe's 4,300 Joules (3,170 ft./lbs.) rule that makes the .338 legal for Lion, and Namibia's 5,400 Joules (3,982 ft./lbs.) rule for all DG, that makes the .338 Win mag "technically" illegal there for a Game Department official intent on ruining your day (225 gr @ 2,800 ft./s = 3,916 ft./lbs. - for those who believe in speed for DG; and 250 gr @ 2,660 ft./s = 3,927 ft./lbs. - for those who believe in weight for DG). Not that a Lion would care either way...

My own view...

If paper requirements did not exist, my own medium-large favorite bore would be the .340 Wby that hits on DG like Thor's own hammer with 250/275 gr AFrame or 250/285 TSX; penetrates like crazy with 250 gr Peregrine monolithic solid; and shoots on PG like a laser beam with 210 gr TTSX, darn near as flat as a .257 Wby, which is no faint praise and which no .375, H&H or souped-up Wby, can do...

As it is, and as much as I love the .340 Wby, I keep it for Moose in Alaska, and pack a .375 H&H Blaser R8 barrel (although the temptation to rim it to .375 Wby is always there) to Africa because I just do not have the patience anymore to go through the arguing with the local Game Warden...

one day,
you might have just moved me 1 more inch toward a 340 for what i do.
bruce.

 

[ldmay375]

one day,
you might have just moved me 1 more inch toward a 340 for what i do.
bruce.

Bruce, if you do. I would definitely look forward to reading of your results !!