.35 Whelen & CFE223 - magnum or standard primer?

[Longwalker]

I'm trying CFE 223 in my Whelen for the first time. 225 grain bullets, both Sierra BTSP and Nosler Partitions. Worked up to 66 grains in Remington cases. Used Remington 9-1/2M magnum primers. Pressures seem OK, from visual inspection only. But it was -32°C outside where I live and so I didn't test for accuracy or velocity. Just fired a few off from the truck and tried to keep things warm. Now I'm wondering if the magnum primer is the best choice ( CFE223 is a ball powder ) or if a standard primer should be used. I have plenty of both types on hand. I normally use magnum primers with > 60 gr. of powder or with ball powders, but in the Whelen I usually use standard primers. I don't expect to hunt in extreme cold, so present conditions aren't relevant to the discussion. I just need something to do while waiting for spring and so loading up a bunch of ammo seems like a good idea at the moment. Your thoughts before I commit to one type or the other?

 

[7x57Joe]

I believe I would try both and make a decision based on the performance of the loads. Sometimes switching primers shows a marked difference.

 

[jwp475]

I use Federal 215 primers with CFE223 & POWER PRO VARMINT

 

[Longwalker]

7x57 Joe, I agree, mostly, but I am not in a position to try the loads for accuracy or velocity because of the weather. I was hoping to load a bunch of ammo while there's nothing else for me to keep busy at, and will base my primer choice on the experience and advice to others.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I would use magnums if I had them, if not it wouldn’t concern me too much. I always kind of thought (perhaps incorrectly) that 60 grains was the cutoff for standard primers. I use magnums on ball powder frequently regardless of the charge.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen this one’s for you

 

[Longwalker]

thanks Wyatt, I have the same habits. I was just wondering, because CFE223 is such a new powder and I have no experience with it, if using it calls for a magnum primer like most other ball powders or if it's easier to ignite? The data I've seen so far for it shows regular primers. But the charge is over 60 grains, so ...

 

[Wyatt Smith]

thanks Wyatt, I have the same habits. I was just wondering, because CFE223 is such a new powder and I have no experience with it, if using it calls for a magnum primer like most other ball powders or if it's easier to ignite? The data I've seen so far for it shows regular primers. But the charge is over 60 grains, so ...

I can’t say I’ve loaded any CFE 223, but I’ve shot near 1000 rounds of 30-06 loaded with 57 grains of W760 with standard primers and they all were perfect. After that I switched to 4350. I started using magnums at some point because the manual says to and I thought it would be silly to have trouble when it would be easy to avoid.

 

[YancyW]

Whatever @Bob Nelson 35Whelen says is what I would do.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I'm trying CFE 223 in my Whelen for the first time. 225 grain bullets, both Sierra BTSP and Nosler Partitions. Worked up to 66 grains in Remington cases. Used Remington 9-1/2M magnum primers. Pressures seem OK, from visual inspection only. But it was -32°C outside where I live and so I didn't test for accuracy or velocity. Just fired a few off from the truck and tried to keep things warm. Now I'm wondering if the magnum primer is the best choice ( CFE223 is a ball powder ) or if a standard primer should be used. I have plenty of both types on hand. I normally use magnum primers with > 60 gr. of powder or with ball powders, but in the Whelen I usually use standard primers. I don't expect to hunt in extreme cold, so present conditions aren't relevant to the discussion. I just need something to do while waiting for spring and so loading up a bunch of ammo seems like a good idea at the moment. Your thoughts before I commit to one type or the other?

@Longwalker
I use only standard large rifle primers in my Whelen loads with CFE223. I use 70gns of it behind a Sierra 225gn gkbt without a problem. I haven't used it in temps as low as you but have used it from minus 6 to 40 degrees celcieus.
Never had a failure to fire.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I can’t say I’ve loaded any CFE 223, but I’ve shot near 1000 rounds of 30-06 loaded with 57 grains of W760 with standard primers and they all were perfect. After that I switched to 4350. I started using magnums at some point because the manual says to and I thought it would be silly to have trouble when it would be easy to avoid.

@Wyatt Smith
I use 62gn of 2209/H4350 and standard primers without a problem and get complete burn.
Bob

 

[Wyatt Smith]

@Wyatt Smith
I use 62gn of 2209/H4350 and standard primers without a problem and get complete burn.
Bob

I should clarify Bob, I use standard primers for my 30-06 loads with 4350. I switched to magnums for ball powder to avoid problems I never had anyway.

 

[Longwalker]

Is there a downside to using magnum primers if they are not actually necessary? Do standard primers improve uniformity? Some people say they prefer "mild" primers for accuracy, some say they use "magnum" to ensure reliability. I may be over thinking this, but would appreciate some clarity.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Is there a downside to using magnum primers if they are not actually necessary? Do standard primers improve uniformity? Some people say they prefer "mild" primers for accuracy, some say they use "magnum" to ensure reliability. I may be over thinking this, but would appreciate some clarity.

@Longwalker
Our loading guru in Australia Nick Harvey says that magnum primers can cause higher pressure in some cases and recommends reducing loads by a few grains.
I have only tried magnum primers once and that was twice to often.
I was using the recommended load of Win748 with a 250gn bullet in my Whelen AI with 215 magnum primers. I started with the minimum load and went up 1fn at a time. I only fired 3 shots and each shot had smoke coming out of the action. I had no pressure signs but that was the end of 748 and magnum primers for me.

I load Hogdon Superformance in my 25. That powder is a slow burning ball powder around the same as Re22 and H4831SC/ 2213sc or a fraction slower. My load is approaching 60gn and I use standard Remington large rifle primers to set that charge off without any problems.
Bob

 

[hoytcanon]

@Longwalker
Our loading guru in Australia Nick Harvey says that magnum primers can cause higher pressure in some cases and recommends reducing loads by a few grains.
I have only tried magnum primers once and that was twice to often.
I was using the recommended load of Win748 with a 250gn bullet in my Whelen AI with 215 magnum primers. I started with the minimum load and went up 1fn at a time. I only fired 3 shots and each shot had smoke coming out of the action. I had no pressure signs but that was the end of 748 and magnum primers for me.

I load Hogdon Superformance in my 25. That powder is a slow burning ball powder around the same as Re22 and H4831SC/ 2213sc or a fraction slower. My load is approaching 60gn and I use standard Remington large rifle primers to set that charge off without any problems.
Bob

Was your opposition to using the LRM primers with 748 or do you not use 748 at all? I ask because 748 is my "go to" powder for .358 Win, .350 Rem Mag and .35 Whelen... I've shot literal tons of game with 748 in .35 cal rifles.

 

[KurtC]

The military uses magnum primers with ball powder. Double based powders are difficult to ignite in cold temperatures.

 

[Longwalker]

Our weather warmed up to around 0° and so I got out to shoot a few shots over the chronograph. And learned something in the process.

First some history. A few years ago I shot my .35 Whelen and compared both standard and magnum primers with RL15 powder / 250 grain Hornady bullets. The maximum loads that I tried back then, with the same charge of RL15 powder yielded 2548 fps with the Federal 215 magnum primer. Compared with 2534 fps with a Remington 9-1/2 standard primer. Very little difference, 14 fps. I chose to use the standard primers with that powder.

This time I loaded 65 and 66 grains of CFE223 powder in cartridges loaded with 225 Sierra Game king, and 225 Nosler Partition bullets. And also compared Remington 9-1/2 Standard vs Remington 9-1/2 Magnum primers.

Velocities were as follows - with only three shots recorded of each combination I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the fine details but the trends were very interesting:

225 Sierra GK, CFE223 66 grains Rem 9-1/2 std. = 2676 FPS
225 Sierra GK, CFE223 66 grains Rem 9-1/2 mag. = 2750 FPS Primer Difference = 74 FPS

225 Nosler PTN, CFE223 66 grains Rem 9-1/2 std. = 2720 FPS
225 Nosler PTN, CFE223 66 grains Rem 9-1/2 mag. = 2830 FPS Primer Difference = 110 FPS

On average the Nosler partition was faster / higher pressure than the Sierra.
80 FPS faster than the Sierra when fired with magnum primer,
44 fps faster with the standard primer.

From what I can extrapolate from my manuals and from this limited test, it looks like in my rifle I should consider 2750 FPS is likely also the maximum permissible pressure with this powder and bullet weight. I would not want to shoot a magnum primer with the Nosler bullet and 66 grains of CFE223. If I use a magnum primer with that bullet, I should drop my powder charge a full grain or more.

So maximum powder charges can vary 1-2 grains depending on both bullet type and primer type.

And I learned primer type seems to have a big difference or a small one, depending on the powder used. In physical form, RL15 = stick type, CFE223 = ball type

Also, I tried the Barnes 200 grain TTSX with the CFE223 powder and was disappointed. While seating the boat tail bullets in a case with powder partly filling the neck, the small round powder granules sometimes got stuck between the case neck and the boat tail of the bullet, and bulged / wrinkled the case neck when forced into the "wedge". Stick type powders have no such problem.

I concluded that CFE223 actually does ignite better with a magnum primer. And all bullet types of the same weight are not equal in the pressure/velocity they produce. I'll continue to experiment with CFE223, with magnum primers.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Was your opposition to using the LRM primers with 748 or do you not use 748 at all? I ask because 748 is my "go to" powder for .358 Win, .350 Rem Mag and .35 Whelen... I've shot literal tons of game with 748 in .35 cal rifles.

@hoytcanon
No aversion to either really.
I just had a bad experience with it in the AI Whelen.
The cartridges I use don't need magnum primers and 748 is great in the 308 but adi 2208 and cfe223 both work better.
The big downside is magnum primers ar impossible to get in Australia and we no longer import any Winchester powders which is a crying shame but that's life.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Our weather warmed up to around 0° and so I got out to shoot a few shots over the chronograph. And learned something in the process.

First some history. A few years ago I shot my .35 Whelen and compared both standard and magnum primers with RL15 powder / 250 grain Hornady bullets. The maximum loads that I tried back then, with the same charge of RL15 powder yielded 2548 fps with the Federal 215 magnum primer. Compared with 2534 fps with a Remington 9-1/2 standard primer. Very little difference, 14 fps. I chose to use the standard primers with that powder.

This time I loaded 65 and 66 grains of CFE223 powder in cartridges loaded with 225 Sierra Game king, and 225 Nosler Partition bullets. And also compared Remington 9-1/2 Standard vs Remington 9-1/2 Magnum primers.

Velocities were as follows - with only three shots recorded of each combination I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the fine details but the trends were very interesting:

225 Sierra GK, CFE223 66 grains Rem 9-1/2 std. = 2676 FPS
225 Sierra GK, CFE223 66 grains Rem 9-1/2 mag. = 2750 FPS Primer Difference = 74 FPS

225 Nosler PTN, CFE223 66 grains Rem 9-1/2 std. = 2720 FPS
225 Nosler PTN, CFE223 66 grains Rem 9-1/2 mag. = 2830 FPS Primer Difference = 110 FPS

On average the Nosler partition was faster / higher pressure than the Sierra.
80 FPS faster than the Sierra when fired with magnum primer,
44 fps faster with the standard primer.

From what I can extrapolate from my manuals and from this limited test, it looks like in my rifle I should consider 2750 FPS is likely also the maximum permissible pressure with this powder and bullet weight. I would not want to shoot a magnum primer with the Nosler bullet and 66 grains of CFE223. If I use a magnum primer with that bullet, I should drop my powder charge a full grain or more.

So maximum powder charges can vary 1-2 grains depending on both bullet type and primer type.

And I learned primer type seems to have a big difference or a small one, depending on the powder used. In physical form, RL15 = stick type, CFE223 = ball type

Also, I tried the Barnes 200 grain TTSX with the CFE223 powder and was disappointed. While seating the boat tail bullets in a case with powder partly filling the neck, the small round powder granules sometimes got stuck between the case neck and the boat tail of the bullet, and bulged / wrinkled the case neck when forced into the "wedge". Stick type powders have no such problem.

I concluded that CFE223 actually does ignite better with a magnum primer. And all bullet types of the same weight are not equal in the pressure/velocity they produce. I'll continue to experiment with CFE223, with magnum primers.

@Longwalker
I have loaded the 225gn Sierra game king SPBT with their max load of 70gn of CFE223 working up from 66gn and got great results using standard Remington large rifle primers. End result was just under 2,900fps with no pressure signs.
This load was safe in my rifle only. Always start low and work up watching for pressure signs.
Bob

Actual chronoed velocity with 70gn of CFE223 and 225gn Sierra GKSPBT

 

[jwp475]

With Power Pro Varmint and CFE223 I use Federal 215 primers. Very happy with the reuslts.