>35 Whelen versus. 338 Win Mag TKO values (modified)

[cajunchefray]

@Bob Nelson 35 Whelen, got me to thinking about the vast utility of the .35 Whelen (I own 3 and want another, but that's another story).

So, I ran some numbers (we all know this is just math, but relatable) comparing the .35 Whelen to the .338 Win Mag, 225 grain bullets, MV used in calculation.

Calculations are from Gregor Woods excellent book, "Rifles for Africa" printed in 2002.
His term is Relative Damage Potential, (RDP) upgraded from Taylor's KO values. Again, this is just a mathematical factor, used for comparison among various cartridges.
It does not include real world factors like shot placement, bullet construction, terminal bullet ballistics, specific animal physiology, moon phase, etc.

Mr. Woods updated John Taylors "Knock Out" values (African Rifles and Cartridges, 1948) to capture, the cross-sectional area of various bullets, as well, as bullet weight and velocity as John Taylor did. The basic formula for RDP (Relative Damage Potential) is:

Bullet Weight x Velocity x Cross-sectional Area
________________________________________________
7000

Examples are:
.30-06 RDP 5.2
.375 H&H RDP 11.9
.458 WM RDP 23.9

Results for .35 Whelen vs. 338 Win Mag: (225 grain bullets, MV from Speer #14 reloading manual)

.338 Win Mag RDP 8.2
.35 Whelen RDP 8.6
So, @Bob Nelson 35Whelen, is on point.
The .35 Whelen delivers .338 Win Mag performance, and more, with 20% less powder and (in my experience) 20% less recoil.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35 Whelen, got me to thinking about the vast utility of the .35 Whelen (I own 3 and want another, but that's another story).

So, I ran some numbers (we all know this is just math, but relatable) comparing the .35 Whelen to the .338 Win Mag, 225 grain bullets, MV used in calculation.

Calculations are from Gregor Woods excellent book, "Rifles for Africa" printed in 2002.
His term is Relative Damage Potential, (RDP) upgraded from Taylor's KO values. Again, this is just a mathematical factor, used for comparison among various cartridges.
It does not include real world factors like shot placement, bullet construction, terminal bullet ballistics, specific animal physiology, moon phase, etc.

Mr. Woods updated John Taylors "Knock Out" values (African Rifles and Cartridges, 1948) to capture, the cross-sectional area of various bullets, as well, as bullet weight and velocity as John Taylor did. The basic formula for RDP (Relative Damage Potential) is:

Bullet Weight x Velocity x Cross-sectional Area
________________________________________________
7000

Examples are:
.30-06 RDP 5.2
.375 H&H RDP 11.9
.458 WM RDP 23.9

Results for .35 Whelen vs. 338 Win Mag: (225 grain bullets, MV from Speer #14 reloading manual)

.338 Win Mag RDP 8.2
.35 Whelen RDP 8.6
So, @Bob Nelson 35Whelen, is on point.
The .35 Whelen delivers .338 Win Mag performance, and more, with 20% less powder and (in my experience) 20% less recoil.

@cajunchefray
Thanks for that mate.
I've been trying to tell @CoElkHunter for ages that his prissy little 338 wm just can't cut the mustard compared to the mighty Whelen.
Now he might believe it BUT I don't think he will change. Ah well more components for us.
Bob

 

[mark-hunter]

This topic is interesting, not heard before of RDP.
One thing caught my eye:
.375 H&H RDP 11.9
.458 WM RDP 23.9

Is it really possible that 458 wm has doubled RDP potential when compared to 375 H&H?

What would hunters with experience with both calibers would say, or experienced PH?
Is it possible that 458 wm is double better in knocking down larger animals or DG, when compared to 375 H&H?

 

[cajunchefray]

This topic is interesting, not heard before of RDP.
One thing caught my eye:
.375 H&H RDP 11.9
.458 WM RDP 23.9

Is it really possible that 458 wm has doubled RDP potential when compared to 375 H&H?

What would hunters with experience with both calibers would say, or experienced PH?
Is it possible that 458 wm is double better in knocking down larger animals or DG, when compared to 375 H&H?

@mark-hunter you bring an important question. I am no way qualified to answer that.
It’s just a formula that Gregor Woods refined based upon John Taylor’s “Knock-Out” values. Cross sectional area of a bullet, not just diameter.
John Taylor wrote that the TKO values were
just a formula and means of relative comparison, but NOT perfect. He was looking at “stunning effect “ for lack of a better term, to turn an elephant. Old school bullet technology, just to compare.

Today’s bullets change the game.

He clearly stated that the calculated values did not reflect the true “killing power “ of the.375 H&H, it was better.

My purpose for the post was to show that, possibly, the.35 Whelen has as much RDP, as the.338 Win Mag.
While I like both the.375H&H, and the.458 Win Mag, it’s hard to accept that the.458 is double.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Isn’t the Taylor KO mainly figured with solid bullets. I would guess the bullet with the largest diameter would nearly always win.

 

[Tom Leoni]

I greatly prefer the .35 Whelen to the .338 Win Mag--virtually identical ballistics with fewer pyrotechnics, plus the stamp of the good old Colonel (whether he designed it or merely approved of it).

I don't own a rifle in this chambering--God knows I have enough calibers in my collection--but I've always admired it and the way it came about.

As for the TKO, RDP, or even muzzle-energy figures, I've never put too much stock in them. What kills is the mechanical disruption of vital tissue brought about by a bullet capable of penetrating (Gregor Woods makes the point rather elegantly in his book). Therefore, any bullet of--or expanding to--a sufficient diameter and having enough sectional density to reach the vitals trough penetration, will kill. An arrow from a bow kills because of these very properties, even though its kinetic energy is practically negligible.

So yes, one more enthusiastic vote for the .35 Whelen. Still nowhere near as perfect, balanced, versatile, legendary and (dare I say) downright sexy as the .375 H&H, but then again, what cartridge is?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I greatly prefer the .35 Whelen to the .338 Win Mag--virtually identical ballistics with fewer pyrotechnics, plus the stamp of the good old Colonel (whether he designed it or merely approved of it).

I don't own a rifle in this chambering--God knows I have enough calibers in my collection--but I've always admired it and the way it came about.

As for the TKO, RDP, or even muzzle-energy figures, I've never put too much stock in them. What kills is the mechanical disruption of vital tissue brought about by a bullet capable of penetrating (Gregor Woods makes the point rather elegantly in his book). Therefore, any bullet of--or expanding to--a sufficient diameter and having enough sectional density to reach the vitals trough penetration, will kill. An arrow from a bow kills because of these very properties, even though its kinetic energy is practically negligible.

So yes, one more enthusiastic vote for the .35 Whelen. Still nowhere near as perfect, balanced, versatile, legendary and (dare I say) downright sexy as the .375 H&H, but then again, what cartridge is?

@Tom Leoni
The old Whelen may be plain Jane but how many pistol bullets are made for the 375.
The plain Jane tower of power can be loaded with 125 gn lead bullets for a very cheap plinking/ practice round up to a 310gn soft or solid to 2,455fps with over 4,000 for of bone crunching power. The 319s have the same as as the 350s in the 375.
How much more versatility do you need. The 350 Rigby magnum accounted for a lot of buffalo and a few elephant.
I rest my case your honour .
The 375 is just a bit more if a good thing in the big stuff but not by as much as you think.
Bob

 

[Tom Leoni]

LOL - Well played, Bob! I know that the .35 is a splendid cartridge, as you rightfully say (and nothing plain Jane about it, BTW). I just have to keep up my "persona" as the biggest .375 H&H fanatic!

 

[Flewis]

Tom, you and Bob have that backwards. The 375 while one of the best is as plain as another great the 3006. The 35w is far cooler.

 

[Scott CWO]

Pardon me gents but I will take the extra 200 FPS generated by the .338 WM for reaching out in elk county over the Whelen every time but in close quarters in Africa, I will tip my hat to @Bob Nelson 35Whelen

 

[The35Whelen]

I’ve never heard of RDP so this is very cool! It’s exciting to see the numbers for the 35 Whelen against the 338 WM, though regardless of the numbers the 35’s got my vote. I’m however more intrigued by the 375 H&H’s score.

Does the group feel the 375 H&H’s 28 and 31 percent RDP increase over the 35 Whelen and 338 WM accurately represents the killing power of the Queen of Medium Bores?

 

[CZDiesel]

Good God man!!! The 35 Whelen is a GREAT 30-06 wildcat! A GREAT 30-06 WILDCAT!!!!!!
It is NOT a 338 Mag not even close!!!
STOP THE MADNESS!!!

 

[CZDiesel]

Pardon me gents but I will take the extra 200 FPS generated by the .338 WM for reaching out in elk county over the Whelen every time but in close quarters in Africa, I will tip my hat to @Bob Nelson 35Whelen

In close quarters the 338WM still does the same all the way out to 300gr rounds!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@Bob Nelson 35 Whelen, got me to thinking about the vast utility of the .35 Whelen (I own 3 and want another, but that's another story).

So, I ran some numbers (we all know this is just math, but relatable) comparing the .35 Whelen to the .338 Win Mag, 225 grain bullets, MV used in calculation.

Calculations are from Gregor Woods excellent book, "Rifles for Africa" printed in 2002.
His term is Relative Damage Potential, (RDP) upgraded from Taylor's KO values. Again, this is just a mathematical factor, used for comparison among various cartridges.
It does not include real world factors like shot placement, bullet construction, terminal bullet ballistics, specific animal physiology, moon phase, etc.

Mr. Woods updated John Taylors "Knock Out" values (African Rifles and Cartridges, 1948) to capture, the cross-sectional area of various bullets, as well, as bullet weight and velocity as John Taylor did. The basic formula for RDP (Relative Damage Potential) is:

Bullet Weight x Velocity x Cross-sectional Area
________________________________________________
7000

Examples are:
.30-06 RDP 5.2
.375 H&H RDP 11.9
.458 WM RDP 23.9

Results for .35 Whelen vs. 338 Win Mag: (225 grain bullets, MV from Speer #14 reloading manual)

.338 Win Mag RDP 8.2
.35 Whelen RDP 8.6
So, @Bob Nelson 35Whelen, is on point.
The .35 Whelen delivers .338 Win Mag performance, and more, with 20% less powder and (in my experience) 20% less recoil.

I really don't have a side here, but when things don't make sense I do question it. Could you please provide the powder loads and expected MV for maximum MV for these 225gr loads?

From my Switft manual, the 225gr load for the .338WM uses 74gr of RL-22 for 2750fps, that is the maximum velocity listed. From the same manual the 225gr load for the .35 Whelen is 60.5gr of BL-C(2) for 2623fps.

Ok that is 20% less powder but it's also 5% less speed. Thus the .338WM will have 10% more energy and 5% more momentum. Add to this the increased sectional density and BC, it's hard for me to buy into this notion that the .35 Whelen gives .338WM performance with identical bullets.

Will there be more recoil with the .338? Of course there will, but I'd put that up to the .338 shooting considerably faster, that's just physics.

To be certain both are proven calibers and I'm not disparaging either. I also own neither of them. I have a .300WM and a .375HH. Having both of these, I just don't see a hole that either the .338WM or .35 Whelen fills, that my existing two choices already don't. And I'll shoot my .375 with 250gr bullets all day long, heck even my wife is starting to do that now. Go "down" to the .300WM and with 200gr bullets and I'll shoot even longer.

 

[Scott CWO]

In close quarters the 338WM still does the same all the way out to 300gr rounds!

I know. Just trying to give them some empathy. Lol.

 

[wolfhunter]

figuring out that cfe223 powder gives the 35 Whelen quite a bit more velocity than the old standard powders did change the ko a lot its the same as a 358 norma easy

 

[CZDiesel]

Look, I like the 35 Whelen! I think it makes one of the best CQ bush guns out there!!!
Not for Dangerous Game but for everything else!
Id like to one day make one in a 20” bbl Mannlicher stocked custom…
But it’s not a 338Win Mag no matter how bad someone wants it to be! It’s not and will never be!
Thats OK, I LOVE my 264 Win Mag! Maybe my favorite cartridge and rifle I own!!! But it’s not the 7STW that I own either!
Just saying, there are places for all! And the 35W fits most but as the saying goes “Jack of all trades, Master of none!”

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

LOL - Well played, Bob! I know that the .35 is a splendid cartridge, as you rightfully say (and nothing plain Jane about it, BTW). I just have to keep up my "persona" as the biggest .375 H&H fanatic!

@Tom Leoni
Mate someone has to be the greatest 375 fanatic and I promise I won't steal your thunder. Besides that I can't afford the sun glasses to match your cool factor.
Keep up the good work promoting the 375.
Some one has to.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Pardon me gents but I will take the extra 200 FPS generated by the .338 WM for reaching out in elk county over the Whelen every time but in close quarters in Africa, I will tip my hat to @Bob Nelson 35Whelen

@Scott CWO
What extra 200fps.
338 wm 225gn = 2,850 fps
338wm 250gn= 2,700fps
OR
35 WHELEN
225 gn@ 2900fps
250gn@ 2,700fps
310gn @2,455fps
Can't se no 200 fps maybe 100fps with the 225s in the Whelens favour.
338 second best AGAIN
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Good God man!!! The 35 Whelen is a GREAT 30-06 wildcat! A GREAT 30-06 WILDCAT!!!!!!
It is NOT a 338 Mag not even close!!!
STOP THE MADNESS!!!

@CZDiesel
The Whelen was used by God hisef the great Colonel and that good ol boy Elmer before the little 338 was a twinkle in Winchester's eye.
Even. After Elmer put his bib in and helped with the 338 and developed a nice little cartridge. It still doesn't outshine it's great predecessor the mighty tower of power that is the Whelen.
Those that denigrate it do so to try and justify their inferior cartridge.
You are correct in one thing the 338 is madness, it aint a 35.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob