.358 Win optimal barrel length

[Rimshot]

I'm putting together a 'PG capable' rifle for my wife, and also I just like tinkering.
Platform: Savage 11 'Lady Hunter'. Dimensions of the stocks on these fit my wife really well.
The barrel is just a standard kit from ER Shaw, 24" with a pretty heavy contour. It makes the rifle ridiculously unbalanced and also feel heavier than it is (she complains about rifles that are too heavy).

In my mind I think cutting it to 20" will be the right compromise without giving up too much ballistic performance, reducing the muzzle-heavy balance, and leaving enough weight to keep recoil acceptable for her. Theoretically the expansion ratio should make the 358 win the 'anti-264 win mag' when it comes to tube length. My experience with the 358 is fairly limited. My father has a Ruger M77 from the 1970's in 358 with a short (maybe 18"?) barrel that my brother and I hunted with a lot as kids. It was very effective, but maybe a tad too short. I don't think I ever shot it across a chronograph though.

Am I on the right track here? Does going from say 20 to 18 inches give up more velocity than 22 to 20 inches, or is it linear?

 

[USMA84DAB]

Rimshot -

I whole-heartedly support at least going to 20". I have recently built an AR-10 with a 16" barrel in this superb cartridge. Only able to test it on one doe this past season. I put up photos here, but also attached some to this thread. Trying to compare an AR to a bolt gun is tough (meaningless, even, perhaps). I do not worry about the FPS. You can get it over 2200 easy and you have a broader bullet to transmit the energy. Ladies tend to listen and shoot well, so shot placement will be good. The kudu/zebra/oryx won't know if it was 2250 or 2450 fps when they drop.

I look up the loads in the manual to find the powder that will give the highest velocity. I then split the difference between the red-line load and the one just before it. This gets respectable speed, but allows for variances in powder throw, primers, temp, etc. Chasing the past few FPS beats up the rifle. (and her)

Also, when I can use Quickload data contributed by a buddy to get small groups, I am often times not at the greatest FPS load, but those harmonic sweet spots are stunning! Check out picture number 5! 100 yards, 5 round groups, .416 Ruger with 400 grain Barnes solids, no cooling between groups. My barrel opens up as it warms, but unless culling, you won't need more than 5 shots. If you do get to cull, the 2nd and third groups are adequate anyway.

Bob it to 20". See how it handles. Then you could shorten it again if need be.
- Remember - you carry the rifle 99% of the time, fire it 1%.
- If she is weight sensitive, then maybe the answer is 18".
- A significant portion of the scout rifle brew-ha-ha was handiness.
- Women, in general, are 40% weaker with regard to upper body strength than the average guy. Lighter is better in this case.

Shoot it to get the dope. It does not matter if it shoots 2" high at 100 yards, zero at 200, -12" at 300 yards - you learn this by practice.

What if the scope you select has a 100 yard zero for it's reticle? Then you are tied to the reticle's speed, or you must shoot to learn the deviations.

Or, chrono the round and get a CDS dial from Leupold so the PH gives her the distance, she turns the CDS dial to the right spot and holds dead on.

While I don't like a route-stepping velocity, one should worry about handiness in the brush much more than velocity! This is why I have Goldilocks rifles with the Ruger Alaskan - 20" barrels! Short, light and handy!

 

[7x57Joe]

Rimshot, Back in the late '80's I got a .358 Win. E.R. Shaw barrel in #2 1/2 x26" which was the lightest offered in .35 cal. I cut it to 22" and rebarreled a M.70 Featherweight. It has a slight muzzle heaviness which I like as it helps control my wobbles when shooting offhand. Weight with 2-7 Leupold and sling is 8 pounds 15 ounces. Velocity is 50-60 fps faster than a BLR with 20" barrel. I have used this rifle on deer and elk and have never used but one round for each. I have noticed that while 7mm to .45 caliber kills well, .35 cal. and above leaves a much greater blood trail.....although I've never needed it. Like someone said, they either drop in their shadow or take a few steps before dropping.

 

[gbflyer]

A 20” or less .358 is a nice package. Nothing that says it has to be an even number either. I often times go 21.5 or 19 just to be different

 

[Ray B]

The initial barrel length of Rem M700 short action 308s was 20" and the only thing I recall as different from the performance from a similar rifle with a 22" barrel was that the slow burning powders used in factory ammunition produced a very impressive flash at dusk/dawn and a noticeable blast. Bullet performance seemed to be very little difference especially from the animals point of view.

 

[CBH Australia]

A 20” or less .358 is a nice package. Nothing that says it has to be an even number either. I often times go 21.5 or 19 just to be different

Yes I often wonder why we go 18,20,22,24,26. Probably following factory offerings.i know the OP question is regarding performance but could you saw it off cleanly with a hacksaw at. 22, see how you wife feels, maybe then another inch 21 to be different and theoretically most cartridges lose 25fps to 50fps each time you cut an inch. It's been tested and written a few times and also found on YouTube.
So theoretically you know the potential loss so maybe try get the balance right before having the gunsmith crown it.

I would potentially build a 21inch for a scrub gun but lopping it at 18 will make it loud and maybe 150fps slower limiting it's longerish range potential or effective ness.

 

[bruce moulds]

why not leave it at 24" and reprofile it.?
the reason i don't have a 358 any more is lack of trajectory for where i hunt.
22 to 24 are not bad lengths for being quieter and a bit faster.
bruce.
bruce.

 

[Alaska Luke]

Here is my experience for what its worth.

I had a 358 with an 18 barrel. I choreographed a hot load at 2478. I cut the barrel to 16.25 and the same load is 2416. So roughly 31 fps per inch.

I love my little 358 as a brush gun but a bit extra barrel would probably extend the range a bit. My challenge with the 358 is many of the normal projectiles drop below 1800 fps very quickly. Below that I don't think you'll get reliable expansion.

So I would run the ballistic numbers before I went too crazy. My little carbine is designed for packraft hunting and hiking hunts. I'm deliberately sacrificing some range for a lighter rifle. If my priorities were different I'd keep it longer.

 

[MS 9x56]

I hunt with a BLR in 358 with a 20” barrel and for hunting in brush and woods it is quite handy and accurate. I have a friend who has a Ruger 77 RSI with a 18” barrel in 358” we shot both guns with my hand loads and the difference was only 35 FPS. The biggest difference I noticed was increased muzzle flash and blast. I know muzzle blast can affect some shooters more than others. I have yet to have had to track any animal hit with the 358 more than 70 yards with many DRT. I do not find the recoil to be objectionable. Not much more than a 308. But then I grew up hunting deer with shotgun and slugs. If building for your wife I would recommend a limbsaver recoil pad. Good hunting.

 

[Rimshot]

why not leave it at 24" and reprofile it.?
the reason i don't have a 358 any more is lack of trajectory for where i hunt.
22 to 24 are not bad lengths for being quieter and a bit faster.
bruce.
bruce.

This is the potentially ideal solution. The cost to have this done would likely exceed what I paid for the barrel though. I'd be ahead just selling this one and having Shilen or McGowen make one.

She already has a 250 Savage in an identical rifle for longer range (450 yard 1st round hits on 1 gallon jugs no problem for her with that rifle)

I hunt with a BLR in 358 with a 20” barrel and for hunting in brush and woods it is quite handy and accurate. I have a friend who has a Ruger 77 RSI with a 18” barrel in 358” we shot both guns with my hand loads and the difference was only 35 FPS. The biggest difference I noticed was increased muzzle flash and blast. I know muzzle blast can affect some shooters more than others. I have yet to have had to track any animal hit with the 358 more than 70 yards with many DRT. I do not find the recoil to be objectionable. Not much more than a 308. But then I grew up hunting deer with shotgun and slugs. If building for your wife I would recommend a limbsaver recoil pad. Good hunting.

The worst blast I've experienced was a 7mm-08 with a 16" barrel (a factory offering from Ruger!), the 18" .358 was nothing compared to that. The pressure wave would give me headaches during load testing.

 

[curtism1234]

I have a Blr in 308 with a 20" barrel. It is quite whippy offhand - though I hit where I'm aiming when the shot is quick.

If it was me, I'd go no less than 20. 21 or 22 would be preferred to me

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I'm putting together a 'PG capable' rifle for my wife, and also I just like tinkering.
Platform: Savage 11 'Lady Hunter'. Dimensions of the stocks on these fit my wife really well.
The barrel is just a standard kit from ER Shaw, 24" with a pretty heavy contour. It makes the rifle ridiculously unbalanced and also feel heavier than it is (she complains about rifles that are too heavy).

In my mind I think cutting it to 20" will be the right compromise without giving up too much ballistic performance, reducing the muzzle-heavy balance, and leaving enough weight to keep recoil acceptable for her. Theoretically the expansion ratio should make the 358 win the 'anti-264 win mag' when it comes to tube length. My experience with the 358 is fairly limited. My father has a Ruger M77 from the 1970's in 358 with a short (maybe 18"?) barrel that my brother and I hunted with a lot as kids. It was very effective, but maybe a tad too short. I don't think I ever shot it across a chronograph though.

Am I on the right track here? Does going from say 20 to 18 inches give up more velocity than 22 to 20 inches, or is it linear?

@ Rimshot
I personally wouldn't go under 20 inches with 22 being preferable. A good bullet for your PG hunt would be the 225 grain Woodleigh PPSP. This is a bonded bullet and has a flat base that doesn't encroach on the powder space like the 225 grain accubonds.
The 358 is a very underrated cartridge that hits harder than its paper balistics indicate.
For practice shooting off sticks you can load up some 158 grain pistol bullets for cheap practice.
I have the 358s bigger brother, the Whelen and it went well in Namibia.
Bob

 

[CBH Australia]

Reading the 2 previous curtism and Bob I am back to the 21" I said earlier.
Bruce said the trajectory was not suitable over the distances he requires.
18 is gonna be loud.
Carbines have a place but 20 isnnt that long or unwieldy

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

This is the potentially ideal solution. The cost to have this done would likely exceed what I paid for the barrel though. I'd be ahead just selling this one and having Shilen or McGowen make one.

She already has a 250 Savage in an identical rifle for longer range (450 yard 1st round hits on 1 gallon jugs no problem for her with that rifle)


The worst blast I've experienced was a 7mm-08 with a 16" barrel (a factory offering from Ruger!), the 18" .358 was nothing compared to that. The pressure wave would give me headaches during load testing.

@Rimshot
If she already has an identical rifle in 250 savage you could have a barrel profiled the same but in 258 if there's enough meat and make a dandy switch barrel.
It takes about 10 to 15 minutes to change barrels on a savage. My gunsmith taught m e how to do it using factory cartridges rather than headspace gauges and it works well.
That way you can have a dual purpose rifle. Sell the other one as the barrel channel sounds like it has been altered to suit the heavier barrel so putting a lighter barrel will have a gap between the forend and barrel you could drive a truck down.

With the money you get you could get another barrel and a bucket full of ammo.
Bob

 

[Rimshot]

@Rimshot
If she already has an identical rifle in 250 savage you could have a barrel profiled the same but in 258 if there's enough meat and make a dandy switch barrel.
It takes about 10 to 15 minutes to change barrels on a savage. My gunsmith taught m e how to do it using factory cartridges rather than headspace gauges and it works well.
That way you can have a dual purpose rifle. Sell the other one as the barrel channel sounds like it has been altered to suit the heavier barrel so putting a lighter barrel will have a gap between the forend and barrel you could drive a truck down.

With the money you get you could get another barrel and a bucket full of ammo.
Bob

I guess I wasn't totally clear, I've got a pile of these actions I've collected when a deal comes around. I buy barrels in my favorite chamberings when I find them on sale/clearance prices and swap them out.

I already altered the barrel channel on this one for the heavier profile barrel. Shaw of course recommends against turning it down but I'm sure that's standard boilerplate b.s. anyway.

I don't think she'd want to give up the 250. It's one of my favorites and the deer never go far.

 

[Edge]

I'm putting together a 'PG capable' rifle for my wife, and also I just like tinkering.
Platform: Savage 11 'Lady Hunter'. Dimensions of the stocks on these fit my wife really well.
The barrel is just a standard kit from ER Shaw, 24" with a pretty heavy contour. It makes the rifle ridiculously unbalanced and also feel heavier than it is (she complains about rifles that are too heavy).

In my mind I think cutting it to 20" will be the right compromise without giving up too much ballistic performance, reducing the muzzle-heavy balance, and leaving enough weight to keep recoil acceptable for her. Theoretically the expansion ratio should make the 358 win the 'anti-264 win mag' when it comes to tube length. My experience with the 358 is fairly limited. My father has a Ruger M77 from the 1970's in 358 with a short (maybe 18"?) barrel that my brother and I hunted with a lot as kids. It was very effective, but maybe a tad too short. I don't think I ever shot it across a chronograph though.

Am I on the right track here? Does going from say 20 to 18 inches give up more velocity than 22 to 20 inches, or is it linear?

I have a 20" barreled Ruger American that I use for my close range deer gun out of a tree stand.

Here are velocities for three bullets I have on hand that might give you an idea of possibilities with a 20" barrel:

180 Speer Flat Point with RL10X : 2750 fps accuracy load but I've gone over 2800 fps trying to find pressure. Ballistic Coefficient isn't the best but within 100 yards it doesn't matter much! Tough bullet, see pic.

200 Hornady Spire Point with TAC: 2615 fps max due to powder compression.

225 Sierra Spire Point with TAC: 2490 fps and accurate, max due to powder compression.

Edge

 

[C.W. Richter]

In a caliber of that diameter you're only losing 10 or so feet per second per inch so shorter is fine just like in many of the guns that were sold in the caliber. 20-in 21 custom you're not losing a thing with a longer gun. Longer barrels are for smaller calibers and longer range or huge calibers that need an additional boost.

 

[Alaska Luke]

CW I think he'll lose more like 24-35 fps per inch based on my experience. With an already low velocity that is worth considering.

I do think I was told once that the 358 velocity drops off more dramatically below 20 inches.

 

[Rimshot]

@Edge those are very respectable velocities out of 20". I don't have any TAC, I think the closest suitable powder I have will be BLC-2. Some FB 225s should be the ticket, even cup and core at these velocities.

Playing around with the ballistics, it seems like even out of a shorter barrel it should be plenty effective out to 250 yards with ~2000 ft/lb of retained energy and 2000 fps of velocity ensuring adequate expansion, and that's ISA conditions. Adjust for the density altitude in Namibia and things get even better.

 

[C.W. Richter]

*I too got the highest velocities (and superior accuracy) in a 22" .350 Rem Mag using TAC.