358 Winchester & 9.3x57 Question About Performance

[Alaska Luke]

So I have a question for folks who have hunted with the 358 Winchester and 9.3x57 (I'm lumping them together because they are close).

I have a very nice little 358 Winchester and reloading components (important given the shortages). I'm tempted to take the 358 on some hunts where grizzlies might be on the "menu" but moose and caribou would be the main target. These hunts may involve packing very light in a packraft so any weight saved is nice.

I know the 358 will make a nice big hole in a caribou. My question is has anyone had experience shooting a grizzly or similar sized animal (larger plains game for example). I know a 358 will go through the ribs to the vitals (heck a 7mm-08 does that). I'm more interested if more experienced hunters think a 358 or 9.3x57 would punch through heavy shoulder muscles and possibly a 1 inch wide shoulder bone on the way to said vitals while doing descent tissue damage. In other words how does it handle a bad angle shot?

Now before someone says "buy a 300 Mag" I don't have the funds or time to set up a new rifle (and I might not find ammo for it anyway). I can use my 308 but its marginal for a bear and not all that much better then the 358 at long range (short barrel). I can use my 375 Ruger but its heavier and doesn't "fit" as well as the 358. I shoot okay with both but I feel slightly better with the 358 and it's a bit faster on follow up shots.

Basic plan is to load up 160 gr Cutting Edge bullets for longer range. I'd throw in 225 gr Swift A Frames going about 2420 fps if I had the itch to chase a grizzly. Other bullets are not really available currently.

Thought? Am I crazy? I'd love to hear from someone with experience. If not I may just lug the 375 Ruger.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

So I have a question for folks who have hunted with the 358 Winchester and 9.3x57 (I'm lumping them together because they are close).

I have a very nice little 358 Winchester and reloading components (important given the shortages). I'm tempted to take the 358 on some hunts where grizzlies might be on the "menu" but moose and caribou would be the main target. These hunts may involve packing very light in a packraft so any weight saved is nice.

I know the 358 will make a nice big hole in a caribou. My question is has anyone had experience shooting a grizzly or similar sized animal (larger plains game for example). I know a 358 will go through the ribs to the vitals (heck a 7mm-08 does that). I'm more interested if more experienced hunters think a 358 or 9.3x57 would punch through heavy shoulder muscles and possibly a 1 inch wide shoulder bone on the way to said vitals while doing descent tissue damage. In other words how does it handle a bad angle shot?

Now before someone says "buy a 300 Mag" I don't have the funds or time to set up a new rifle (and I might not find ammo for it anyway). I can use my 308 but its marginal for a bear and not all that much better then the 358 at long range (short barrel). I can use my 375 Ruger but its heavier and doesn't "fit" as well as the 358. I shoot okay with both but I feel slightly better with the 358 and it's a bit faster on follow up shots.

Basic plan is to load up 160 gr Cutting Edge bullets for longer range. I'd throw in 225 gr Swift A Frames going about 2420 fps if I had the itch to chase a grizzly. Other bullets are not really available currently.

Thought? Am I crazy? I'd love to hear from someone with experience. If not I may just lug the 375 Ruger.

@Alaska Luke
Mate load up some 200grain Barnes TSX for the 357 for everything.
A friend of mine took the 8x57 and necked it up to 358 and improved the case to become the 358 Mitchell Express named after it's designer Ted Mitchell. This gives velocities close to a 35 Whelen and he uses it on everything up to buffalo.

The 358 Mitchell Express loaded for red deer.
Bob

 

[Alaska Luke]

Looks like a nifty wildcat.

Bob I looked at 200 gr and 180 grain Barnes. But I had a bad experience with a 375 Barnes not opening up properly. I just don't think the 358 will push them hard enough. At any rate the Cutting Edge bullets are supposed to expand down to 1500 fps. With that I think I could ethically push the 358 to 400 yards. All other lead and non-lead bullets for the 358 need 1800 fps to expand (probably more for the Barnes). That would limit me to 250 to 300 yards. Normally I'm not a long range sniper but caribou are migratory. This year the boys I hunt with didn't get a good chance until the last day of the season. At times like that you want to make things happen and fill the freezer. I would probably limit moose shots to 200 which is not a huge problem (you have to make sure they are legal). Bears I'd limit to 100 yards or so but that's not a problem.

At some point I'll probably get a light weight 300 Mag of some kind but as I said this is not a good year for experiments.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Looks like a nifty wildcat.

Bob I looked at 200 gr and 180 grain Barnes. But I had a bad experience with a 375 Barnes not opening up properly. I just don't think the 358 will push them hard enough. At any rate the Cutting Edge bullets are supposed to expand down to 1500 fps. With that I think I could ethically push the 358 to 400 yards. All other lead and non-lead bullets for the 358 need 1800 fps to expand (probably more for the Barnes). That would limit me to 250 to 300 yards. Normally I'm not a long range sniper but caribou are migratory. This year the boys I hunt with didn't get a good chance until the last day of the season. At times like that you want to make things happen and fill the freezer. I would probably limit moose shots to 200 which is not a huge problem (you have to make sure they are legal). Bears I'd limit to 100 yards or so but that's not a problem.

At some point I'll probably get a light weight 300 Mag of some kind but as I said this is not a good year for experiments.

@Alaska Luke
Being a smaller round the 225 grain Sierra BTHP really shines as well being a shorter bullet it works well out to around 300 yards in the 358.
Bob

 

[Alaska Luke]

I do have some Game King bullets. Fortunately they shoot to essentially the same point of aim as both Nosler Partitions and Swift A Frames, at least at first.

I used Nosler Partitions on a couple caribou and was pretty impressed. Sadly I ran out and have not been able to find more. So the A Frames will be for bear and the Sierras for other stuff out to 300 yards. If I get some Cutting Edges I'll see if I can work up a load for them that works well enough to stretch things a bit farther.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I do have some Game King bullets. Fortunately they shoot to essentially the same point of aim as both Nosler Partitions and Swift A Frames, at least at first.

I used Nosler Partitions on a couple caribou and was pretty impressed. Sadly I ran out and have not been able to find more. So the A Frames will be for bear and the Sierras for other stuff out to 300 yards. If I get some Cutting Edges I'll see if I can work up a load for them that works well enough to stretch things a bit farther.

@Alaska Luke
Your 358 sound a bit like my Whelen. It doesn't seem to matter what I load in it from 200 grain FTX up to 250 grain Speer and Hornaday roundnose and any 225 in between it still puts everything in a bit over an inch for 6 shots with 6 different projectiles.
Bob

 

[HWL]

So I have a question for folks who have hunted with the 358 Winchester and 9.3x57

I'm tempted to take the 358 on some hunts where grizzlies might be on the "menu" but moose and caribou would be the main target.

Both great cartridges, but in grizzly country, I would take something bigger.

Just to feel comfortable.... 9,3x62, for example.

HWL

 

[7x57Joe]

So I have a question for folks who have hunted with the 358 Winchester and 9.3x57 (I'm lumping them together because they are close).

I have a very nice little 358 Winchester and reloading components (important given the shortages). I'm tempted to take the 358 on some hunts where grizzlies might be on the "menu" but moose and caribou would be the main target. These hunts may involve packing very light in a packraft so any weight saved is nice.

I know the 358 will make a nice big hole in a caribou. My question is has anyone had experience shooting a grizzly or similar sized animal (larger plains game for example). I know a 358 will go through the ribs to the vitals (heck a 7mm-08 does that). I'm more interested if more experienced hunters think a 358 or 9.3x57 would punch through heavy shoulder muscles and possibly a 1 inch wide shoulder bone on the way to said vitals while doing descent tissue damage. In other words how does it handle a bad angle shot?

Now before someone says "buy a 300 Mag" I don't have the funds or time to set up a new rifle (and I might not find ammo for it anyway). I can use my 308 but its marginal for a bear and not all that much better then the 358 at long range (short barrel). I can use my 375 Ruger but its heavier and doesn't "fit" as well as the 358. I shoot okay with both but I feel slightly better with the 358 and it's a bit faster on follow up shots.

Basic plan is to load up 160 gr Cutting Edge bullets for longer range. I'd throw in 225 gr Swift A Frames going about 2420 fps if I had the itch to chase a grizzly. Other bullets are not really available currently.

Thought? Am I crazy? I'd love to hear from someone with experience. If not I may just lug the 375 Ruger.

I have read that the .348 Winchester was once considered a very good bear hunting round in Alaska. With that in mind, the .358 is more of a good thing because it's bullets are much better than those of yore and with both having the same muzzle velocity, there is a slight edge to the .358. I would have no problem with using my .358 on grizzly but, I have been using one since 1979 and know it pretty well.

 

[lwaters]

I load my 358 win. with 225 gr. Nosler partitions with H 4895. I think that would work great for moose caribou and grizzly which are smaller than the brown bear.

 

[flatwater bill]

Luke....that's a great question. A friend took a 358 in a BLR to Africa and used it on plain's game from kudu down, with devastating effect. But I always wondered about using it on grizzly, brown bear, eland, etc. The old Speer manual lists 250 grainers at 2330 fps and says of big coastal bears...."....it will certainly handle them in a pinch." Whatever that means. Not too many 358 users, so I too wonder what their experience shows..............thanks for posting...........FWB

 

[Alaska Luke]

Bill I suspect that is the problem. One way to think is a 220 gr 30-06 at 2400 fps will work. So a 225 gr 358 should work... of course that 30-06 might punch through a bit more bear.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bill I suspect that is the problem. One way to think is a 220 gr 30-06 at 2400 fps will work. So a 225 gr 358 should work... of course that 30-06 might punch through a bit more bear.

@Alaska Luke
But the 358 is going to punch a bigger hole to letmore blood out even before the 06 starts to expand.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

with bears it depends on whether they are coming towards you or going away.
in close the 358 has a good reputation.
bears having teeth and claws would suggest avoiding nosler partitions for obvious reasons.
the 225 gn aframe would suit the case size well, will open fast on lighter game, yet will not fail on big game close.
my own experience with the 358 is that it is not a 400 yd consideration.
even 300 yds is stretching reality.
very few cartridges are in fact 400 yd cartridges in terms of what they deliver there and realistic trajuctory.
my 9.3x64 would be much better, but i do not consider 400 yd shots with it.
i also note greater deadliness at 100 yds than 300.
bruce.

 

[Alaska Luke]

Well at 400 a typical 358 is just above 357 S&W ballistics so obviously a drop off as you get out there. Definitely not a 300yard bear gun, maybe caribou though.

 

[bruce moulds]

luke,
in this day and age we tend to think you can have your cake and eat it too.
you want a short action hitter to stop great bears and a 300 yd caribou rifle and a moose rifle all in one, and the 358 comes close.
but you will have to sacrifice something, and in this case it is point blank range.
anything that will be a bear stopper is 250 yds at best for a reasonable point blank range.
270, 300 mag etc are 300 yd point blank cartridges.
270 is not a bear stopper in a tight spot, but a 300 might be with 200 gn swifts ot 180 gn barnes.
however these are std length actions which does not suit your criteria.
same with bobs whelen loads.
use different loads for different animals?
yes but you might have to rezero for each load, and what if a bear stands up in front of you at 25 yds when you are loaded for caribou.?
bruce.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

luke,
in this day and age we tend to think you can have your cake and eat it too.
you want a short action hitter to stop great bears and a 300 yd caribou rifle and a moose rifle all in one, and the 358 comes close.
but you will have to sacrifice something, and in this case it is point blank range.
anything that will be a bear stopper is 250 yds at best for a reasonable point blank range.
270, 300 mag etc are 300 yd point blank cartridges.
270 is not a bear stopper in a tight spot, but a 300 might be with 200 gn swifts ot 180 gn barnes.
however these are std length actions which does not suit your criteria.
same with bobs whelen loads.
use different loads for different animals?
yes but you might have to rezero for each load, and what if a bear stands up in front of you at 25 yds when you are loaded for caribou.?
bruce.

@bruce moulds
You can have your cake and eat it to just not in a short action unless it the 35 Sambar
The 35 Whelen is a 300 yard plus elk rifle with 225 grain accubonds and a big hitter out to the 250 to 300 with a 250 grain like the A Frame.
Your 64 is a I have cake and can eat it too cartridge.
Bob

 

[Scrumbag]

Would it be worth considering a 35 cal Norma oryx?

 

[flatwater bill]

Scumbag..... I wonder if the 35 Oryx bullet was designed more for 358 Norma velocities?....FWB

 

[Scrumbag]

Scumbag..... I wonder if the 35 Oryx bullet was designed more for 358 Norma velocities?....FWB

I don't know enough to comment, but there is a 35 Whelen advertised by Norma so I would guess OK.

Scrummy

 

[Powdermaker]

I don't have any experience hunting bears, but have shot three moose and five or six elk with the 358 Win. I think that the 225 gr A-frames would be entirely adequate for bear, provided you are not shooting over 200 yards. I have had good success with 225 gr. TSX, seldom recovering a bullet but when I did, they were perfectly mushroomed. I guess everyone has their own comfort level as to shot distance, mine is 250 yards. Most animals I have killed with this round have been much closer.