375 H&H and 458 Win Mag

[Garry Bezuidenhout]

Hi guys
I have just been asked by some critics to thorough explain in plain and simple English why i would need a 458 win mag and the reasons why my 375 h&h would be inadequate for the purpose of hunting scrub bull , banteng , or water buffalo and the same why i would need a 30/06 when i have a 270 hope someone has a simple explanation as i have tried to put it as simple but thorough as could lol

 

[IvW]

In Aus just use 350 gr Woodleighs in the 375 H&H and you would have the perfect setup for the intended purpose.

 

[rookhawk]

The question is, do you want to hunt scrub bulls or STOP scrub bulls. A hunter would be quite happy with the better ballistics and the flat shooting of the 375HH. A professional in the bush hunting at close ranges or protecting loss of life day after day doesn't want a gun that will kill an animal in 60 seconds, they want one that will instantaneously kill an animal before it kills you.

The 375HH has much more versatility than the 458, and frankly is the world's most versatile caliber by most people's measure. It isn't the "perfect" choice for every application, but it will work in a pinch for everything from a 10lb Grysbok up to a 4 ton elephant.

For Australian use, I think the 375HH does a fine balancing act.

 

[Shootist43]

Garry, my wife has often asked me similar questions. The calibers keep changing and sometimes the size of the game. But to answer your question, the angle of the shot presented isn't always optimal and additional penetration is required. Another answer that has satisfied the "boss" from time to time is that the "hunt" has a limited duration and I can't be sure of a clean kill with a smaller rifle at some point later in the hunt. You might also be able to claim an easier retrieval since the animal is less likely to run. If all else fails, offer to buy her a new outfit and take her "out on the town." As a last resort, just buy the new rifle and keep your mouth shut!

 

[bruce moulds]

garry,
having used the 270 and 30/06 extensively, and liked some aspects of both while recognizing weaknesses in both, i have well and truly settled on the 280 rem for that application.
quite simply it does most of what the other two do in one package.
using the same logic, 41 cal is midway between 375 and 458.
there is a perfect vehicle for this in the m70 win 416 rem mag.
if you are lucky the 350 gn barnes will shoot a bit higher than the 400gn swift, allowing one sight setting for close and longer shots.
bruce.

 

[BeeMaa]

To me, different rifles in different calibers are like tools in a toolbox...each one has a job to do.
You can push it using a 270 when you should be using a 30 caliber, or a 375 when something larger would do a better job.
Kinda like using a crescent wrench to drive a nail every now and then.
You can get away with it, but you don't want to be framing a house with a crescent wrench.
I've used this philosophy with my bride and it has worked.
The only question I get is "how many houses do you intend on framing"?
You best have an answer for that one.

 

[BenKK]

Mate, it’s just about fun! Mostly... I’ve used both wonderful cartridges a lot on buffalo and scrubbers. They’re both fine. Stopped a charging scrubber in spectacular fashion with the .375H&H. But the distance was forty-five metres. I sure was glad of the .458WM when a huge, wounded buffalo bull swung around to attack at twenty metres. The .375H&H can do a bit more, but the .458WM is better in close, thick cover. Not that the .375 can’t do the job in the thick stuff, just that the margin for error is smaller - which is why I sold mine and bought a .500J instead.

I sincerely miss my Model 70 .458WM, even though it’s a cartridge that has many detractors. I enjoyed and appreciated it.

 

[C.R.]

i'm going out on a limb and grasping for straws on this one, but one could argue the .458 will possibly penetrate "better" and by "better", I mean this: I believe we will all agree that for the most part, sectional density plays a material role in a bullet's ability to penetrate. In a perfect world, bullets of the same construction, SD, etc would penetrate similarly even if different calibers (i recognize there are other variables such a meplat and so on, but i'm attempting to simplify). We also know that a smaller caliber bullet ( for this example, the .375) requires a longer bullet to reach the same sectional density as a larger caliber bullet (in this example, the .458). A longer bullet is more prone to bending and veering off course. So it's quite possibly that a .375 w/ a SD of .356, could bend, veer off course and not penetrate to the heart or vertebrae, or whatever the intended target is. However, the .458 w. a SD of .356 would be less prone to bending and might actually penetrate "straighter" and reach the intended target.

 

[IvW]

i'm going out on a limb and grasping for straws on this one, but one could argue the .458 will possibly penetrate "better" and by "better", I mean this: I believe we will all agree that for the most part, sectional density plays a material role in a bullet's ability to penetrate. In a perfect world, bullets of the same construction, SD, etc would penetrate similarly even if different calibers (i recognize there are other variables such a meplat and so on, but i'm attempting to simplify). We also know that a smaller caliber bullet ( for this example, the .375) requires a longer bullet to reach the same sectional density as a larger caliber bullet (in this example, the .458). A longer bullet is more prone to bending and veering off course. So it's quite possibly that a .375 w/ a SD of .356, could bend, veer off course and not penetrate to the heart or vertebrae, or whatever the intended target is. However, the .458 w. a SD of .356 would be less prone to bending and might actually penetrate "straighter" and reach the intended target.

A 350 gr 375 bullet has a SD of .356

A 500 gr 458 bullet has a SD of .341

A longer bullet is more prone to bending and veering off course.

Only if you use non premium grade bullets. Proper premium grade bullets do not veer off course or bend. Longer bullets out penetrate short bullets all other factors being equal.

A similar designed 350 gr 375 bullet @ 2300 fps will out penetrate a 500 gr 458 bullet @ 2050 fps all day long.

 

[C.R.]

A 350 gr 375 bullet has a SD of .356

A 500 gr 458 bullet has a SD of .341





Only if you use non premium grade bullets. Proper premium grade bullets do not veer off course or bend. Longer bullets out penetrate short bullets all other factors being equal.

A similar designed 350 gr 375 bullet @ 2300 fps will out penetrate a 500 gr 458 bullet @ 2050 fps all day long.

my brief example states both bullets have SD of .356. I made no statement one way or the other to bullet weight or to any particular bullet construction. All other factors being equal, would you agree that a long narrow bullet would be more prone to bend than a short fat bullet with both bullets having the same sectional density and construction? I'm not saying the long thin bullet will bend each and ever time or that it will fail............, i'm stating a long thin bullet is more prone to bending than a short fat bullet.

 

[EZRider]

my brief example states both bullets have SD of .356. I made no statement one way or the other to bullet weight or to any particular bullet construction. All other factors being equal, would you agree that a long narrow bullet would be more prone to bend than a short fat bullet with both bullets having the same sectional density and construction? I'm not saying the long thin bullet will bend each and ever time or that it will fail............, i'm stating a long thin bullet is more prone to bending than a short fat bullet.

As both bullets in your example have the same sectional density they will have exactly the same ratio of “length” to “fatness” as those two factors are what determine SD (weight being determined by length on bullets of identical construction).
So neither bullet will be relatively “shorter” or “fatter” regardless of caliber and both will be equally prone to bending.

I use Barnes TSX bullets which are longer than equivalent weight lead bullets and I have seen pictures of them bent before. That being said I do all my hunting with TSX bullets in .308 and .375 and have never experienced a bent bullet.

 

[bruce moulds]

length in relation to diameter of a bullet is called fineness ratio.
weight in relation to diameter is called sectional density.
a round nose and a vld of the same calibre, same weight will have the same s.d., but a different fineness ratio.
for a smaller calibre to have the same sectional density, it must have a greater fineness ratio.
extreme examples of this are a really heavy 6.5mm bullet compared to say a 50 cal bullet of the same s.d.
the big long thin 6.5 bullets were known to bend, and the 50s not so.
bruce.

 

[EZRider]

length in relation to diameter of a bullet is called fineness ratio.
weight in relation to diameter is called sectional density.
a round nose and a vld of the same calibre, same weight will have the same s.d., but a different fineness ratio.
for a smaller calibre to have the same sectional density, it must have a greater fineness ratio.
extreme examples of this are a really heavy 6.5mm bullet compared to say a 50 cal bullet of the same s.d.
the big long thin 6.5 bullets were known to bend, and the 50s not so.
bruce.

True but C.R. stated "all else being equal" in his example and when using the same make of bullet (you would have to in order to compare apples to apples) the heavier bullet is proportionately longer.
A 300 gr TSX is longer than a 300 gr A-Frame of the same weight even though they have the same SD but a .458 with a SD of .356 will have the same "fatness" to length ratio as a .375 with a SD of .356 if both are TSX.

My point being both will have roughly equivalent propensity to bend.
You would need a .458 bullet weight of 522 gr to get a SD of 0.356.

 

[IvW]

my brief example states both bullets have SD of .356. I made no statement one way or the other to bullet weight or to any particular bullet construction. All other factors being equal, would you agree that a long narrow bullet would be more prone to bend than a short fat bullet with both bullets having the same sectional density and construction? I'm not saying the long thin bullet will bend each and ever time or that it will fail............, i'm stating a long thin bullet is more prone to bending than a short fat bullet.

Not so.

I have never had heavy for caliber bullets in either 375 H&H(350 and 380 gr) or 500 Jeff(570 gr and 600 gr) bend ever! These are meplat brass solids.

So from my experience as long as the bullets are made from the correct material, you will not have any issues with "bending". Solids made the conventional way as well as solids made from copper which are both made from softer material may be a different story, but I do not use them on DG. I have seen conventional bullets bend, start mushrooming and also change shape when used on elephant.

Heavy for caliber bullets have been the benchmark for DG hunting for many years, I know there are hunters who prefer lighter bullets at higher velocity but I do not fall into that group.

Give me a premium grade heavy for caliber bullet at modest velocity(2200-2400) in the right caliber any day above the lighter faster bullet.

Bear in mind that the requirements for a client and a PH are not the same and that some bullets may well be suited for the client but not for the PH.

Using 570 gr bullets in my 500 Jeff @ 2350 fps(Rhino controlled expansion and meplat solids), I have never found this combination wanting even in the most tight situations having to stop elephant, buffalo, lion, rhino and hippo(on land) some coming and some going, touch wood, I have never needed more than 1 shot to resolve these issues. Yes shot placement and competence with the firearm and caliber is paramount but bullet performance and straight line penetration is equally important in order to reach the vitals that you are aiming at in order to stop what you are shooting at.

 

[IvW]

True but C.R. stated "all else being equal" in his example and when using the same make of bullet (you would have to in order to compare apples to apples) the heavier bullet is proportionately longer.
A 300 gr TSX is longer than a 300 gr A-Frame of the same weight even though they have the same SD but a .458 with a SD of .356 will have the same "fatness" to length ratio as a .375 with a SD of .356 if both are TSX.

My point being both will have roughly equivalent propensity to bend.
You would need a .458 bullet weight of 522 gr to get a SD of 0.356.

It is however not a practical example as .356 bullets in 458 are not available.

Many load the 458 WM with 480 gr bullets due to case capacity issues and inability to achieve respectable velocities with 500 gr bullets especially when using mono metal solids.

We are comparing 458 WM to 375 H&H for use on animals as stated by the OP and not comparisons of bullets that do not exist.

The 375 H&H with Woodleigh 350 gr bullets would be hard to beat for this specific intended use.

 

[EZRider]

It is however not a practical example as .356 bullets in 458 are not available.

Many load the 458 WM with 480 gr bullets due to case capacity issues and inability to achieve respectable velocities with 500 gr bullets especially when using mono metal solids.

We are comparing 458 WM to 375 H&H for use on animals as stated by the OP and not comparisons of bullets that do not exist.

The 375 H&H with Woodleigh 350 gr bullets would be hard to beat for this specific intended use.

I agree 100%
I was responding to C.R. hypothetical question.

 

[Luvthunt]

IVW,
I certainly cannot argue the point with only two cats to my credit, however I can support you on the Rhino bullets for all of the above in your statement except for cats. My guns would be loaded with softer [Nosler, Woodleigh sp].
But your point on all else is well taken.

 

[IvW]

IVW,
I certainly cannot argue the point with only two cats to my credit, however I can support you on the Rhino bullets for all of the above in your statement except for cats. My guns would be loaded with softer [Nosler, Woodleigh sp].
But your point on all else is well taken.

I should have been more specific. Sure, on leopard and lioness(I have shot them(not backing up but, on bait) with 7x57, 308WM and 375 H&H) "softer" bullets are definitely better.

Male Lions I have stopped(or rather pole axed) with the 500 Jeff 570gr Rhino expander @2350 fps, absolutely devastating and I would not use softer bullets on male lion for back-up, on bait first shot, not an issue.

For leopard back up I use, in thick cover 12ga sxs, 24 inch barrels, double trigger fitted with ghost ring sight and loaded with Brenneke slugs. Light, short, very fast, no need to reload for the second shot(they come from too close, too fast and are a small target to hit and you never have time to reload a bolt gun) and can be fired with one hand only, works very well. For follow up in more open areas 9.3x74R/12ga combination is my choice.

Everything else gets dealt with the 500 Jeff...

 

[Luvthunt]

As the Rhino brand of bullet has been brought up, I will put forth the thought that with a Rhino or North Folk brand of bullet that is heavy for the 375 caliber ie 350 OR 380gr. At 2200 or 2300 FPS a 375 may be in the realm of the 458 at least a competitor for the 416s. Yes I know, it is possible to use heavy for caliber in those larger calibers and if the assumption has any validity then their momentum values [penetration] should be closing in on bullet weights that are accepted as standard today ie 416–400gr and 458–500.
Cannot address the higher calibers as I have not used or loaded any above 458 but the same theory should hold true.

 

[TOBY458]

If you are set on a 458 caliber rifle, why not get a 450 Rigby? It can make good use of heavy for caliber/mono bullets, and can achieve 458 Win/Lott ballistics with one hand behind its back.