40 S&W cartridge- how good?

[Ray B]

This is probably not the best forum to ask the question, but it's the forum that I frequent, so it's the one on which I'll ask. A few years ago in response to "shortcomings" of the 9mm and 45 ACP cartridges, the 40S&W was invented. Increased performance over the 9mm and increased capacity over the 45 were claimed and suddenly it was the cartridge of choice for all sorts of law enforcement agencies. But now the frenzy seems to have subsided and those that liked the 9mm have returned to it, claiming improvements in bullets while those that liked the 45 have gone back to 45s that have increased capacity.

the 40S&W does seem to have a lot going for it as a personal protection handgun, but is there an advantage of it over either the 9mm or 45 ACP?

 

[JimP]

More power than the 9mm and less recoil than the 45

A lot like the 41mag for law enforcement. More power than the 357mag and less recoil and easier to recover after a shot than the 44mag.

 

[CM McKenzie]

I would say there is not a huge practical difference in any of the three with quality bullets. You are right about most agencies going back to the 9mm. The unspoken reason they are going back to the 9 because it’s easier to qualify with. They were loosing a lot of new recruits during qualification, because the academy is the first time many of them have ever fired a handgun. I still carry a .45 as a duty weapon; if you run through qualification with that and then go through with a Glock 17, you notice a difference. I would just pick the one you like the best.

 

[Tanks]

I shoot about 50K - 60K rounds of .40 S&W in training and competition. Obviously, it hits harder than a 9mm. However, for humans placement is the key. I like to carry SA guns for CCW. The three that I carry the most are a 9mm Sig P938 (when I wear suits), STI DVC Carry in 9mm, and a .45 Les Baer. I carry the .45 when going to work project areas with a lot of meth users. I have several .40 S&Ws but all are competition guns with 5.4" barrel, big magwell, and 1.25 bls trigger pull not quite suitable for EDC.

I'd say get a gun you shoot well and if you are using the right ammo, on the rare chance you have to use it, it will perform well.

 

[Standard Velocity]

The 40 S&W is a good cartridge. Some people claim it’s too snappy but I like it. The standard 180 grain bullet is quite a bit heavier than 9mm projectiles while gaining a bit of capacity over a 45.

The claims that 9mm with modern bullets is better than it used to be is true to some degree. This school of thought relies on the technology working as intended though. A 230 grain 45 will still create a pretty big hole regardless of the bullet opening up as designed or not. 40 S&W is a pretty reasonable compromise I think. I still prefer a 45 but my full size 1911 is large and heavy. My XDs is pretty small and easy to carry.

 

[Ray B]

I checked the Nosler load data and they list 135 gr bullet with Blue Dot. I forget the charge but it listed as 120+% load capacity. Is it normal to load this cartridge to that density? and with Blue Dot? Otherwise, comparing the loads, the 40 S&W had 20 grains bullet weight for same velocities while it had a velocity higher than the 45ACP, it was with a considerably lighter bullet.

 

[Velo Dog]

Fellow handgun enthusiasts,

Yours truly was a cop for 28 years and as such, I have examined my share of gunshot wounds.
And I have reviewed my share of what happened between combatants during exchange of shots types of situations.

From this I submit that the 9x19 cartridge is no more likely to be “just as effective” as the .40 S&W cartridge than the .32 ACP cartridge is going to be just as effective as the 9mm, neither the .25 ACP just as effective as the .32 and so-on.
(Well ok, yes the .32 ACP is ballistically a very feeble one but nonetheless) ....

Stay on that front sight,
Velo Dog.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

From a laboratory study point of view these Lucky Gunner labs studies have a lot of info for a lot of cartridges WRT factory ammo. There are links to others like .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .32 ACP. These are not the do-all end-all there ate plenty other studies, and of course no humans living or otherwise were used for targets. The relative differences IMO are of interest but not the absolute data.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

 

[Opposite Pole]

To me 40S&W is neither here nor there. Ballistic gelatine tests I've seen show marginally improved penetration over 9x19 and significantly worse than 357Sig. This cartridge seems like a downloaded version of 10mm auto. Personally, I can’t see an application where it excels over other available chamberings. If going for a potent round why not go with 10mm or 45, looking at more velocity in potentially smaller package why not use 357SIG or 9mm +P?

I should point out though that my knowledge of non sport use of handguns is second hand (and will hopefully stay that way).

 

[Velo Dog]

To me 40S&W is neither here nor there. Ballistic gelatine tests I've seen show marginally improved penetration over 9x19 and significantly worse than 357Sig. This cartridge seems like a downloaded version of 10mm auto. Personally, I can’t see an application where it excels over other available chamberings. If going for a potent round why not go with 10mm or 45, looking at more velocity in potentially smaller package why not use 357SIG or 9mm +P?

I should point out though that my knowledge of non sport use of handguns is second hand (and will hopefully stay that way).

Hello Opposite Pole,

The 180 grain .40 S&W will indeed punch through heavy clothing and break bones more reliably than the 9mm will, including the latest loadings, +P or otherwise.
This becomes all-important when the bad guy is wearing heavy winter clothing and/or his hand, wrist or forearm bones are struck by your projectile/s, especially if he is a particularly big strong and heavily built specimen, such as a body builder, brick layer, etc.
I’ve not been present for anyone shooting into gelatin.
But if I was, I would insist that said gelatin have some bones in it (a rack of large pork ribs comes to mind) and also that the gelatin be shrouded in a wool shirt plus a heavy coat.

Not that it matters so much to us civilians but, also when I was a cop, approximately 40% of the creeps the Anchorage PD shot with handgun fire, were through windshields and car doors.
Subsequently the range testing we did against an old car, with various calibers showed that the Federal brand 147 grain 9mm penetrated better than other 9mm brands and assorted 9mm bullet styles.
However, when compared to results of the .357 revolver, the .40 and .45 auto cartridges, the 9mm fell noticeably behind.

I do agree with you that the .357 SIG Auto cartridge looks like a good one for self defense (with the factory 125 grain bullet, it is pretty much the same ballistics as the tried and true .357 Revolver cartridge, when loaded with the same bullet weight).
Likewise, the 10mm is likely the best of the ones discussed here, for stopping bad guys.
But, it has too heavy of a recoil spring for some folks to make it through malfunction drills and even without malfunction clearing practice (fools if we don’t) it has too much recoil for many folks in the first place.

Speaking of recoil, back in the late 1960’s or early 1970’s, the Nevada Highway Patrol and the San Francisco PD, are two law enforcement agencies that once issued .41 Magnum caliber S&W Model 58 revolvers to their Officers.
Even with the so called “Police Load” consisting of a 210 grain plain lead semi-wadcutter, traveling at somewhere around 1,000 fps from the 4” barrel, enough Officers in both agencies had so much difficulty qualifying with same that, both outfits switched to either the .357 revolver or .38 Special revolver.
Likewise, many complained the large N-Frame revolver was too heavy to carry all day/night long.
I mention this old news about the .41 Magnum revolver because it somewhat relates in comparison to the 10mm of today.

My parting shot as it were:
When you are attacked by an armed criminal/s or an aggressive pit bull, hungry bear, etc., any gun is better than no gun.
I generally don’t agree with some of the gun writers that say the 9mm is too feeble for self defense work.
For a civilian (not so likely to have to shoot through cars and such) if you practice your shooting and are both willing to use it plus can hit well with it, I predict you will survive when attacked.
If the attack is particularly fierce and your attackers keep up their aggression, you just keep shooting straight, even if all you brought was a 9mm.
I once investigated a shooting wherein one bad guy shot another in the throat with a little .380, I promise you it was instantly effective.
However as mentioned, there are better choices than any 9mm, if one is willing to carry a bit larger / more powerful weapon.

I like any of the following, the .357 Magnum (.357 SIG Auto as well), the .40 S&W and .45 ACP for my concealed carry needs.
Would like to own a 10mm someday.
I really like the all steel 5” one that SIG has been making lately well, except for those silly “snags on everything” lugs under the front of the frame (disgusting gimmick IMO).
Also, I have a 1911 in .38 Super that I have been known to carry sometimes but, it is generally when I’ve been out plinking with it or, rabbit hunting with it and then perhaps stopping at the store for a loaf of bread on my way home.
It has only slightly more bullet weight and velocity than the 9mm but, sometimes I am carrying it for the reason described.
Same goes for my old Browning 9mm.
If I really believed I was going to get into a shootout in any given day, neither my 9 or my Super would be my first choice.

Kind Regards,
Velo Dog.

 

[Tanks]

I checked the Nosler load data and they list 135 gr bullet with Blue Dot. I forget the charge but it listed as 120+% load capacity. Is it normal to load this cartridge to that density? and with Blue Dot? ...

I use 180 grain bullets and 4.9 grains of N320 generates 955 fps. in my gun. Another popular choice is Titegroup, but it runs hot (temperature) and dirty.

I don't know of anyone that uses Blue Dot especially compressed loads. I'd look at faster powders.

 

[Brent in Az]

I've owned, and carried, S&W .40, for 25 years. I like the 15 round capacity. I dont know how it performs on humans, and hopefully will never have to find out.

 

[jeanes]

Velo Dog, sounds like you would like Paul Harrell' s meat target demos on his Youtube channel. He has some good programs on this and other topics.

 

[Bonk]

I like 40S&W and I think it gets a bad rap. It's the Goldilocks caliber. The perfect compromise between power and recoil. Just right. I prefer 45ACP and 38Super for subjective reasons and by subjective I mean I like 1911s. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate 40S&W because it's a great caliber and it'll get the job done if you do your part. Like it's big brother the 10mm it tends to be an inherently accurate caliber. I've also noticed that whenever there's a run on ammo or ammo is in short supply you can almost always still find 40S&W available on the shelves. YMMV.

 

[Shootist43]

The S&W 40 operates at a much higher pressure than a 45ACP. It is more suitable for short barreled CCW type pistols. To me it is very uncomfortable to use in my 40 Cal Shield due to the sharp recoil and light weight of the pistol. I much prefer to shoot my 3.5" barreled Para Ordinance even though it isn't as effective.

 

[meigsbucks]

As some have said, any gun is better than none. I’ve seen the videos where a 9mm, a .40 and a .45 all penetrate about the same and read the articles comparing them all. I’ve carried all three but have settled on the .40. Reasons for choosing over a 9mm: Additional frontal area. More bullet weight (I load 165 gr). In compact guns, it only gives up a round or two in capacity to the 9mm.
Reasons for choosing over a .45: Lighter recoil (more controllable) in small guns. Greater capacity in small guns.
If I was to make a second choice, it would be the .45, but in a 1911 Commander sized weapon. Reasons: additional bullet weight and frontal area. The larger gun would increase controllability.
No right answer. Just practice, practice, practice and hopefully you’ll never have to find out if you made the right choice.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I am not a fan of the .40 in pistols for defense. I believe a 10mm is more comfortable for those that desire the power and a .45 or 9mm is easier to shoot well. I'm a revolver guy and the truncated cone projectiles are not speedload friendly. Blue Dot in a revolver is fun especially if the guy with the timer isn't expecting it. Loud and has a nice recoil impulse for double action speed shooting.

 

[Nyati]

I´m old school and prefer the .357 Mag

 

[CoElkHunter]

Fellow handgun enthusiasts,

Yours truly was a cop for 28 years and as such, I have examined my share of gunshot wounds.
And I have reviewed my share of what happened between combatants during exchange of shots types of situations.

From this I submit that the 9x19 cartridge is no more likely to be “just as effective” as the .40 S&W cartridge than the .32 ACP cartridge is going to be just as effective as the 9mm, neither the .25 ACP just as effective as the .32 and so-on.
(Well ok, yes the .32 ACP is ballistically a very feeble one but nonetheless) ....

Stay on that front sight,
Velo Dog.

Well, I have two more years over you in law enforcement! Ha! Ha! Anyway, when we transitioned from revolvers ( mine S&W 66) to semi autos in ‘92? , I purchased a Glock 21 .45 from one of my brothers’ law enforcement co-workers. I used this gun until I transitioned to the Glock 22 in about ‘96. I prefer the .45, but had/ have no qualms about carrying the .40. I still carry this same 22 in my current position with a school district. The .40 IS a little snappier with recoil, but it’s stoping power is real close to the .45. Actually, I prefer my Glock 10mm, but can’t carry it in my current position. I carry it often otherwise.

 

[Rob404]

Nothing Techy here I own an FN in 40SW and just enjoy shooting it. A little more Snap than a 9MM and a little less than a 45ACP. JMTC