.400/360 Westley Richards - Is this a suitable cartridge for DG?

[JG26Irish_2]

I have a question for the collective wisdom of the Forum members: The .400/360 Westley Richards cartridge is a old some might say obsolete round that fires a 300g, .358 in (9.1 mm) calibre, bullet at a velocity of 1,900-1950 ft/s with about 2,537 ft⋅lb of energy at the muzzle. This was chambered in a number of old British double rifles in the early days of nitro powder cartridge development starting about the beginning of the 20th century. Most call the 9.3mm x 62mm Mauser to be the all time smallest chambering suitable to be used on DG animals. That cartridge is a bit faster using a 286 gr Swift A-Frame running about 2,362 ft/s with 3,544 ft⋅lb of muzzle energy. The Mauser bullet has a diameter of 0.366 in marginally larger in diameter than the old 400/360 WR projectile. Most countries have a required min cal of 375 and/or an energy limit. Even so, most still allow the 9.3mm Mauser at 366 cal.

Ignoring the obvious issue of locating and loading ammunition and the various national limitations, what is the opinion here about the suitability of the old Westley Richards on larger game such as Cape Buff or other DG or larger plains game such as Giraffe, Zebra, Kudu, Eland, etc? I have no experience with this chambering but from my limited understanding, I am thinking that while it might successfully kill a Buff or large plains animal, it would not be suitable for either. A 30-06 will kill a buff but the wound channel is going to be smaller than those from a 375 or larger cartridge. How many times would you have to attempt shooting a buff with the 360 WR before one of the big bulls finally kills you? (or your PH has to finish it with his hammer to save your sorry azz?). I am asking for a friend, lol. My opinion? "Would make good deer rifle" Thumbs down for DG use. Friends don't let friends carry mouse guns.

 

[RETD16]

For most countries in Africa there is the 9.3mm/.375 minimum caliber for DG. That is a regulation and not up for negotiation. I’ve heard that PHs where that limitation doesn’t exist they have a similar limit for their clients.

2500 ft lbs of muzzle energy is inadequate for DG. My 7mm Mag has over 3000.

 

[pilar]

I would sell it , expensive components to load and weak on the Taylor KO factor
heck I’m a fan of high TKOF and .375 is minimum and .40 cal + is better for buffaloes
or drop to 225gr and get some speed up and FPE as a plains game gun

 

[318AE]

Cool cartridge, but it’s ultimately a rimmed, obsolete 358 Winchester, more or less….maybe a little less…. I would be curious with what Bob 35 Whelen could do with it given a few pounds of CFE223!

 

[Sarg]

I actually have a lovely Westley Richards Double in .400/360NE if you did a search you might find where I asked the exact same thing ?

The WR .400/360NE doesn't use a .358 bullet of 300gr but a .360 bullet of .314gr with 41grs of Cordite.

If it was to use a .358 bullet it would then be basically a .400/350NE, same shell, I believe there are 3 or so .400/360NE with slightly different rim thickness & bore sizes, some with the .366 bore are rechambered to 9.3X74, a pity but makes more sense on availability of ammo !

What I think is strange is in Taylor's book he lords over the .400/350 NE with the 310gr bullet over 43grs of Cordite & states that.

"If I saw the chance of getting hold of a .400/350 in good condition I would be quite perpared to use it as my Only medium bore for the rest of my life"

We are talking 2grs more powder & 4grs less bullet weight ??

I have Kynoch cartridges for mine in 314gr Solid which makes me wonder what other animal than Buffalo, Rhino or Hippo would these be made for ?

I would shoot a buffalo with one myself but there are a lot better cartridges to do that, I think it would be fine for Eland down with the appropriate bullets .

 

[matt85]

Fun gun for close range medium and large game. Poor choice for DG.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Great comments guys. Thank you. I do not own a 400/360 but found one for sale and was intrigued. When I was researching its ballistics it looked like it was a bit too slow for my taste. The doubles are pretty specialized tools and at least with iron sights are not exactly tack drivers. Main benefit being the ability to do a quick followup shot. I often bird hunt with a SxS shotgun and they are great (and kick a lot like a heavy bore rifle). But, with many plains game shots being out about 200-300y, that is too far out for irons in my opinion. And, at 1950fps, the old 360 is not going to be exactly a flat shooter. At one time I had looked at the old 45/70 buffalo cartridge or the more modern 444 Marlin. Both are superior in muzzle energy to the 360 (not by much) but both are considered lacking for DG. I appreciate your inputs.

 

[318AE]

I actually have a lovely Westley Richards Double in .400/360NE if you did a search you might find where I asked the exact same thing ?

The WR .400/360NE doesn't use a .358 bullet of 300gr but a .360 bullet of .314gr with 41grs of Cordite.

If it was to use a .358 bullet it would then be basically a .400/350NE, same shell, I believe there are 3 or so .400/360NE with slightly different rim thickness & bore sizes, some with the .366 bore are rechambered to 9.3X74, a pity but makes more sense on availability of ammo !

What I think is strange is in Taylor's book he lords over the .400/350 NE with the 310gr bullet over 43grs of Cordite & states that.

"If I saw the chance of getting hold of a .400/350 in good condition I would be quite perpared to use it as my Only medium bore for the rest of my life"

We are talking 2grs more powder & 4grs less bullet weight ??

I have Kynoch cartridges for mine in 314gr Solid which makes me wonder what other animal than Buffalo, Rhino or Hippo would these be made for ?

I would shoot a buffalo with one myself but there are a lot better cartridges to do that, I think it would be fine for Eland down with the appropriate bullets .

Sounds like a really cool rifle, and perhaps a little of “labor of love” to shoot it. It would be great to see a few pictures if you have them. Have you found the brass, dies etc to reload it?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

A 300Gr bullet traveling under 2000fps being used on dangerous game, is a disaster waiting to occur.

 

[93marlin]

A 300Gr bullet traveling under 2000fps being used on dangerous game, is a disaster waiting to occur.

It is deer/black bear cartridge in my own opinion, if that's worth anything!

 

[PerH]

Without ducky duck things i seen to remember many .400-360s was rechambered to 9,3x74R as measures is quite close and bullet diameter is the the same . 366 and designstolene for several 9,3 is .360

 

[Sarg]

Sounds like a really cool rifle, and perhaps a little of “labor of love” to shoot it. It would be great to see a few pictures if you have them. Have you found the brass, dies etc to reload it?

Yes I have Brass & dies, bullets are a hassle for the Westley Richards .400/360 as it isn't .366 but .360, I have been meaning to swage some 9.3 slugs down but haven't as yet, .358's are absolutely no good, shoots great with the Kynoch solids.

 

[318AE]

Yes I have Brass & dies, bullets are a hassle for the Westley Richards .400/360 as it isn't .366 but .360, I have been meaning to swage some 9.3 slugs down but haven't as yet, .358's are absolutely no good, shoots great with the Kynoch solids.

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Really sharp looking rifle in great condition - thanks for sharing.

 

[pilar]

Yes I have Brass & dies, bullets are a hassle for the Westley Richards .400/360 as it isn't .366 but .360, I have been meaning to swage some 9.3 slugs down but haven't as yet, .358's are absolutely no good, shoots great with the Kynoch solids.

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I am getting confused about caliber
“”

400/360 Westley Richards​

The .400/360 Westley Richards fires a .358 in (9.1 mm) calibre, 314 gr (20.3 g) bullet at a velocity of 1,900 ft/s (580 m/s). Westley Richards also produced a rimless version of this cartridge, also firing a 314 gr bullet.””

 

[Huvius]

It is confusing.
A 400/360 with a .358” bullet is a 400/350 Rigby for all intents and purposes.
I didn’t believe this until I measured a Kynoch 400/360 WR cartridge.

 

[Sarg]

I am getting confused about caliber
“”

400/360 Westley Richards​

The .400/360 Westley Richards fires a .358 in (9.1 mm) calibre, 314 gr (20.3 g) bullet at a velocity of 1,900 ft/s (580 m/s). Westley Richards also produced a rimless version of this cartridge, also firing a 314 gr bullet.””

Yes you are confused, not sure where you got your info from, I presume you don't have a Westley Richards in this caliber ?

As I said in my first post above, there are many almost the same .400/360's - Prudy load - W Evans Load - (one I see more often taken out to 9.3x74R)- D Fraser Load.

The same case necked to .358 is the .400/350 as I said early which was held in high esteem back in the day.

When I bought this rifle I had no idea of all this & was thinking this was a .360 No2 NE 3in which is nearly a DG cartridge & a fair bit more than all the .400/360 NE.

PS I do wish mine was either a .366/9.3 or .358 bored rifle .

 

[pilar]

Yes you are confused, not sure where you got your info from, I presume you don't have a Westley Richards in this caliber ?

As I said in my first post above, there are many almost the same .400/360's - Prudy load - W Evans Load - (one I see more often taken out to 9.3x74R)- D Fraser Load.

The same case necked to .358 is the .400/350 as I said early which was held in high esteem back in the day.

When I bought this rifle I had no idea of all this & was thinking this was a .360 No2 NE 3in which is nearly a DG cartridge & a fair bit more than all the .400/360 NE.

PS I do wish mine was either a .366/9.3 or .358 bored rifle .

Dang internet

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Sarg, thank you for sharing the pics of your rifle. They are lovely, are they not? Having owned one, what would you hunt with yours? As I stated above, I do not currently own one but found a nice example for sale. While looking at the cartridge ballistics there are indeed a plethora of similar 350, 360, 9.1mm, 9.3mm rounds all different and yet most are very close in bore size and energy. All seem to be a little lacking but then I think back to my old days when I hunted deer with an iron sighted 30-30 Winchester. Up in Canada for decades the 30-30 was the old stand-by for Moose. The popularity of the 350 and 360 rimmed cartridges at the turn of the 20th Century would imply that hunters at that time viewed them as enough gun for something??