.404 Jeffery brass measurements

[FlowHamed18]

Hi

A friend of mine would know a company who is able to manufacture different brass types.

They could manufacture some .404 Jeffery brass too.

But the L3 would only be 70mm instead of 73.02 mm like stated in CIP due to a limitation of a machine.

Do you think that this missing 3mm would cause serious issues for reloading a .404 Jeffery bullet (using Barnes)? Of course you would have to calculate it via QuickLoad etc...

Thanks for your thoughts

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I bought a box of RWS brass that was only 71mm long and it did cause issues with extractor snap over on cartridges dropped in the chamber. 404 cartridges are supposed to be crimped due to excessive recoil. To get the die to crimp on short brass you'll be pushing the shoulder back farther than where it should be. Because 404 is not belted, these shortened loads will be pushed forward too far into the chamber when closing the bolt on a cartridge dropped in the chamber. Then the shell won't extract because the extractor hasn't snapped over the rim. Of course, this isn't a problem if your gun isn't controlled feed. Then every cartridge must be fed from magazine.

 

[cmk]

I normally don't crimp, but I guess that the magazine layout can play a part if that is needed. If your bullet tips are always being hit by the front wall of the magazine box under recoil, then I guess that bullets could be knocked in. And I guess that if the neck tension isn't strong enough, the bullets could get pullet out (if the cases themselves do not move in the magazine).

How crimping would work on a too short neck would probably also depend on how the crimping is done. I believe my Redding seater die has built in (roll?) crimping, and that would probably not work so well, as I think that the interior of the die actually matches the case dimensions rather closely. (basically what I understand @Ontario Hunter to be describing above. In a Lee FCD, the overall length of the cartridge is what dictates when/where the crimping happens. So in that case it would probably work by just taking off a few millimetres at the bottom of the die.

EDIT: no.. wait... that would probably not work with the FCD. I forgot how they are constructed...you could probably shave of a little, but not as much as 3mm.

Crimping aside, I believe that it should work just fine. The neck of the 404 is plenty long, and it would still be more than 1 calibre in length, and the 400gn bullets are also quite long. So you could probably load to the same COL as with the 73mm case. The easiest way to test this is of course just to trim some existing brass down to 70mm and see if it still shoots fine. I would not be afraid to try it at least.

 

[GuttormG]

What is the point of producing cases that do not have correct measurements?

The 3mm shorter neck do not matter.

 

[FlowHamed18]

What is the point of producing cases that do not have correct measurements?

The 3mm shorter neck do not matter.

Well, the European and non DG cartridges, have a shorter L3 than 70mm normally (except e.g. 9,3x74)...

So they can still supply 98%+ of the European market (except DG) up to the caliber 9,3x64... not the worst statistics for the sales part...

They are not advertising for those .404 Jeff. brass at all. They just told me they could only produce them with this specs, if I would order them...

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

What is the point of producing cases that do not have correct measurements?

The 3mm shorter neck do not matter.

??????

Why does it not matter?

The 70mm case length is shorter than the 72.771 mm (2.865 inch) trim length.

 

[GuttormG]

Because the 404 has a ridiculously long neck, not used for anything. (Kind of strange there isn't a modernized, "improved" 404!).
The short case will load (except for crimping) as normal, feed as normal, shoot as normal. But not look right!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Because the 404 has a ridiculously long neck, not used for anything. (Kind of strange there isn't a modernized, "improved" 404!).
The short case will load (except for crimping) as normal, feed as normal, shoot as normal. But not look right!

Correct .. sort of. Set up the dies to reload a standard length 404 case and then use the shorter ones. Don't crimp the cases and see what happens at the range. Take a caliper along and recheck overall length of bullets remaining in magazine after firing a couple of rounds. I have a feeling the bullets won't move in the cases. Go ahead and seat the bullets for factory length. The caneleures(? crimp grooves in bullet) will show but who cares. That way you should have about the same case volume for your loading data and shoulder should be in the proper location for a standard length case.

Belted cartridges were developed to deal specifically with this problem. The belt above the rim ensures precise location of case inside the chamber no matter if it's a bit short. With the 404's long sloping shoulder and no belt, shortened cases (with shorter shoulder length) can allow the rim to be pushed too far forward in the chamber when loading a shell dropped into the gun. Then snap over fails and loaded shell will not eject. In theory one would think that the rim of a fired shell should be pushed back under the ejector claw even if snap over failed during loading. Unfortunately, I discovered that is not always the case.

This problem was an issue with early rimless DGR guns when pretty much all bolt rifles were controlled feed. It was (and Duane Weibe maintains it still is) important that a DGR have the capability to snap over on a round dropped in the chamber. If the hunter can't stop a charging buffalo with four shots, he won't have time to shove another round into the magazine and close the bolt before black death turns him into a pile of steaming hamburger. He needs to be able to grab a shell off his belt, drop it in the open chamber, close the bolt, and maybe save his bacon (though still rather doubtful a fifth shot will do it if he's already muffed four shots ). I'm not sure there were any other beltless rimless DGR cartridges that followed the 404 in 1905. Belted was the next step and it came very quickly.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I should add that my early issues with getting snap over in my 404 build on 98 Mauser were more complicated than just short cases. At first I thought the gun maker who put the barrel on had not set the head space correctly. I questioned him on it and he became quite indignant. Rightfully so I guess. Then I discovered the tension on the extractor claw was excessive ... so much tension that I actually had to pry it off the bolt with a screwdriver to remove it (they should slide off with finger pressure). I reshaped the extractor to relieve some of the spring tension and then the gun would at least snap over on about half the RWS cartridges I'd loaded. Then I bought a box of Hornady brass. First thing I did was check the empty cases for snap over and every one passed. Ah! Then I knew the issue was not head space. It had to be the RWS cases. That's when I checked their length. Too short! I reset my loading dies using the Hornady brass and voila every Hornady cartridge I loaded snaps over. I then tried reloading a few fire formed short RWS cases using my dies adjusted to full length Hornady brass. The brass didn't crimp the bullets (obviously). Oh well. A few cartridges still weren't snapping over. I discovered RWS rim thickness is inconsistent and generally noticeably thicker than Hornady rims. If I continue to use RWS reloads, I will make sure they're stuffed in the magazine and none on the belt.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

To original poster: Long story short. Go ahead and order some of that shorter brass. Find a good unfired full length factory case and set your dies up for it. Then load those short cases (I used 400 gr Barnes). See if recoil shakes the uncrimped bullets in magazine loose. I kinda doubt it will. If not, then you should be good to go.

 

[K E Johnson]

Correct .. sort of. Set up the dies to reload a standard length 404 case and then use the shorter ones. Don't crimp the cases and see what happens at the range. Take a caliper along and recheck overall length of bullets remaining in magazine after firing a couple of rounds. I have a feeling the bullets won't move in the cases. Go ahead and seat the bullets for factory length. The caneleures(? crimp grooves in bullet) will show but who cares. That way you should have about the same case volume for your loading data and shoulder should be in the proper location for a standard length case.

Belted cartridges were developed to deal specifically with this problem. The belt above the rim ensures precise location of case inside the chamber no matter if it's a bit short. With the 404's long sloping shoulder and no belt, shortened cases (with shorter shoulder length) can allow the rim to be pushed too far forward in the chamber when loading a shell dropped into the gun. Then snap over fails and loaded shell will not eject. In theory one would think that the rim of a fired shell should be pushed back under the ejector claw even if snap over failed during loading. Unfortunately, I discovered that is not always the . I'm not sure there were any other beltless rimless DGR cartridges that followed the 404 in 1905. Belted was the next step and it came very quickly.

Any other cartridges that followed with no belt for dangerous game after the .404 Jeffery.
.416 Rigby
.425 Westley Richards
. 500 Jeffery
.505 Gibbs.
.375 Dakota
.404 Dakota
.416 Dakota
.450 Dakota
I am sure there are others. These came to mind.
Belts are not a panacea.
Incidentally, my .416 Rigby built on a Dakota action will hold 4 down and allow the fifth to be pushed down to be fed from the magazine. It will not snap over. My ASquare rifle will not snap over either. Part of Paul Mauser original design.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Any other cartridges that followed with no belt for dangerous game after the .404 Jeffery.
.416 Rigby
.425 Westley Richards
. 500 Jeffery
.505 Gibbs.
.375 Dakota
.404 Dakota
.416 Dakota
.450 Dakota
I am sure there are others. These came to mind.
Belts are not a panacea.
Incidentally, my .416 Rigby built on a Dakota action will hold 4 down and allow the fifth to be pushed down to be fed from the magazine. It will not snap over. My ASquare rifle will not snap over either. Part of Paul Mauser original design.

Hmm. I always thought 416 Rigby was belted. Guess that idea was Holland & Holland's baby? Yes, belting cases was more cosmetic than functional ... in cartridges with sharp shoulders. Presumably belts meant makers could get away with being less precise setting head space. But it also meant those guns didn't cycle as smoothly (allegedy). I think belting the 404 would have been a good choice. Its extraordinary sloping shoulder was an unfortunate carryover from the rimmed double rifle cartridge that was 404's parent.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

The 416 Remington is the belted case. And there is a short in the neck 404 (almost a)Jeffrey, I just cant remember what it’s called that was designed to work in a 98 Mauser with minimal work ( and not the 10.75x68) 404African??
gumpy

 

[Nevada Mike]

re: RWS 404J brass...

I load both Norma and RWS brass for my 404J. I began with Norma brass for load development, then switched to RWS. I FL resized both the Norma and the RWS brass before initial loading and noticed on initial use of the RWS brass that I had (very) flattened primers on the RWS brass using conservative non-maximum loads developed in the Norma brass. Puzzled, I thought through the problem and could only blame a headspace problem for the flattened primers. Upon reloading the once-fired RWS cases, the flattened primers disappeared. The difference in the average weight of the two types of brass was about 9 grains - the RWS being the lighter brass. Velocities over my chrono were similar, so I do not think it was due to a pressure event. I used the RWS brass on the buffaloes I took in Tanzania with zero problems.

I had no problems with the extractor on my GM M98 snapping over the rims of either the Norma or RWS brass. When laoding, I ALWAYS try every round in the rifle I intend to fire it in - both single loading and loading from the magazine.

I think the 404 Jeffery case design is excellent and certainly does not need a belt. It does need a good set of dies and some care and thought in reloading.

 

[GuttormG]

When I had my 404 built I got my hands on quite a pile of cases and bullets.
Cases were Federal, RWS and Norma. The Federal ones was worn and put away to be used for low-pressure leadbullets.
Spending some quality time with measuring tools I found that the RWS was smaller the NORMA and CIP standards, all diameters were below CIP minimum. Why did I measure? Because I have noticed this to be the case with RWS brass in many calibers.
The brass works, the difference is not that big (but I guess it is enough to reduce caselife if one has a chamber close to max dimensions).

Setting aside the Federal ones was a smart move, proper cleaning in the tumbler and inspection showed they were simply worn out and ready to split.
Found a few hundred new 375RUM cases, sized and fireformed and now have brass for practice rounds for the foreseeable future.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

When I had my 404 built I got my hands on quite a pile of cases and bullets.
Cases were Federal, RWS and Norma. The Federal ones was worn and put away to be used for low-pressure leadbullets.
Spending some quality time with measuring tools I found that the RWS was smaller the NORMA and CIP standards, all diameters were below CIP minimum. Why did I measure? Because I have noticed this to be the case with RWS brass in many calibers.
The brass works, the difference is not that big (but I guess it is enough to reduce caselife if one has a chamber close to max dimensions).

Setting aside the Federal ones was a smart move, proper cleaning in the tumbler and inspection showed they were simply worn out and ready to split.
Found a few hundred new 375RUM cases, sized and fireformed and now have brass for practice rounds for the foreseeable future.

You are aware that RUM and WSM cases have significantly narrower rims than 404 (approx 0.010")? I learned that when I tried to make a WSM magnum shell holder work for reloading 404. No extraction issues? If you made them work, that could be good news for me. I'm curious if 300 RUM brass can be opened up for 404. That's the parent case for 375 RUM. It would probably be much easier to find 300 RUM cases here.

 

[GuttormG]

I know, but it is not a problem in my rifle, feeds and extracts just beautifully.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I know, but it is not a problem in my rifle, feeds and extracts just beautifully.

Thanks. I might give it a try if I can find some brass. Rims are only 0.005" narrower radius so extractor should still have plenty to grip. Of course, it might not be a good idea trying to take that ammo to Africa because rim stamp won't match my gun. But as you said, it's better to waste the RUM cases at the range than use up the good stuff. Thanks again.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

I have vague memories that the rum case ends up a bit shorter when you form them
gumpy