.404 Jeffery - RWS v. Norma brass

[Nevada Mike]

I THINK that I can use these two types with the same loads but would like to understand the difference between them before I continue load development. Any comments?

 

[Capt_Oscar]

The 404 Jeffery is one of the most mildly loaded cartridge out there because original rifles were conversions from military weapons and their barrel's steel quality varied greatly. They weren't chasing horsepower, just trying to get to the magical 2150fps with a 400gr bullet. Easy with the 404 Jeffery's case capacity. When you crank her up to modern velocities, chasing 2400fps with a 400gr bullet, I would NOT assume RWS and Norma brass would both be safe with the same powder charge and primer combo. The brass are made in totally different factories, you don't know the process they are using and variances between the two brass manufacturers may make one safe and one over-pressure. There is significantly less risk in the 2150fps pressure ranges and I would be more likely to experiment with swapping brass of a given load since the 2150fps range is essentially starting load capabilities of the 404Jeffery.

Make sense?

 

[Nevada Mike]

Yes. I believe that the Norma brass is thicker and has slightly less capacity than the RWS brass. I am loading for 2250 to 2300 FPS, so loads are not unduly hot. I plan on using the RWS brass for most of my hunting loads.

Been shooting practice loads in my new .404... it's a hoot. Accurate rifle, been keeping the loads in a 5' group off the sticks. Intend to refine my technique so I can stay within 2-1/2" of POA at 100 yards. Buff will not be safe.

 

[nztimb]

I agree that the Norma brass is thicker than the RWS but found no difference in interchanging between them with loads running at 2300fps. I had a slight preference for the Norma brass for its thicker neck walls.

 

[GuttormG]

For the pressure levels the 404 operates at I wouldnt worry at all.
If you are trying to break the speed recird for 400gr .423" bullets it is a different story (and the you shouldnt mix brass..).

 

[Mats Bergholm]

Hi,
Modern RWS brass are made by Norma. The companies are both owned by the Swiss company RUAG.

Cheers from Sweden.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi,

Speaking about 7x57, 9,3x62 and 375 H&H cases, at least the lots of RWS I have, 5 to 10 years old, with BIG RWS letters in the headstamping, all are noticeable heavier and thicker than similar age NORMA brass I have. There are older RWS with smaller letters that are more likely as the current NORMA and SAKO (9,3x62) brass I also have.
I have to use 1 or 2 gr less powder in the big letters RWS for the same velocity as in the other two.
Having said this, to me there are no better cartridge cases than these heavy RWS!!! They are stronger, long lasting, very well annealed from the factory, etc. The only thing is they have tighter primer housing from the start. So, I use with these RWS the blue box not nickeled Winchester primers. The lots I have of them are slightly smaller in diameters than the CCI for example.
I don´t know if all of this is the same with the 404 J cases...Anyway, I would not assume different cases brands as the same, not matter what.

Good luck!

CF

 

[Nevada Mike]

I randomly selected 5 RWS (small letters) cases from the same lot and weighed each, then averaged them and the result was 282.86 grains each. Maximum deviation between the weights was 2.96 grains.

Then I did the same with the new Norma brass and result was 297.35 grains each. Maximum deviation was 2.72 grains.

So the Norma cases are somewhat thicker than the RWS in this case.

 

[IvW]

I think RWS has some of the best brass availible....no issues with Norma either....but the Germans know what they are doing.....

 

[Nevada Mike]

I think RWS has some of the best brass available....no issues with Norma either....but the Germans know what they are doing.....

I agree. I am sort of hoarding this lot. Hard to find, so I am using Norma and Hornady brass for load development and practice rounds.

 

[Desperatezulu]

Why not just measure the H2O capacity of fired samples of each of the case brands and then you'll know what the difference is, if any...

Conjecture on what was made where and what the brass mass of one brand is vs the other is up there with Kentucky windage in terms of scientific technique.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Why not just measure the H2O capacity of fired samples of each of the case brands and then you'll know what the difference is, if any...

I do not have an accurate, graduated pipette is the main reason. H2O varies in volume/density depending on temperature is another... what temperature should the water be when the measurement is taken, assuming I assemble the correct equipment?

 

[GuttormG]

Your powderscale and tapwater will do just fine.

 

[Desperatezulu]

+1 on GuttormG's suggestion.

I rather assumed most reloaders measured their case capacity as a matter of course - my apologies for this.

My suggestion -
1. take a random sample of 10 cases of each brand (you could get away with fewer but you want a decent sample size). Cases must be fired in your rifle with the fired primer still in (to keep it watertight) - i.e. fire-formed cases, not resized.

2. Either number each case in each batch with a marker pen or draw a numbered grid on paper so you can keep track of each individual case.

3. Weigh each case (dry) on your powder scale and note down the mass.

4. Take some tap water and add a tiny drop of dishwashing liquid (or detergent of your choice) to break the meniscus when you fill the cartridge case to the brim. The soap isn't essential but then you need to pay careful attention to filling to the same level - a bulging meniscus complicates this.

5. Fill each case to the same level, flush with the case mouth. Weigh the full case on your scale and note down the mass for each. Don't stress about the case being upright - provided that all the water plus the case are being weighed, you're good. Make sure to dry the powder pan properly each time (your scale resetting to zero, or not, should also warn you if the pan isn't dry)

6. Now for each case subtract the value recorded in step 3 from the value in step 5. The difference is your H2O case capacity.

7. If you have a fascination with statistics, you can release your inner nerd and decide if there are outliers you wish to reject, play around with standard deviations and the like.
My own habit is to reject the highest and lowest and take the average case capacity of the remaining 8.

The average for each batch will answer your questions. If the two batches have the same ave H2O capacity, then carry on using the same load with confidence. The std deviation will also give you an idea of the consistency of the batch/brand - my experience has been that the more premium brands are much more consistent.
Not a big deal for a big bore but the benchrest guys foam at the mouth over this stuff.

I think for the purposes of this exercise, you can ignore the effects of temperature on water volume Provided your water is NOT about to change into a solid or a gas, the deviation on volume at ambient temp is going to be insignificant.

You can run the different case capacities through an internal ballistics programme to see what impact it has on pressures/velocities.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi,

I see more useful to measure the POWDER capacity to compare diferent lots/brands of cartridge cases, than water capacity. And, by the way, filling the cases just to the shoulder-neck junction. I see no reason to measure the neck volume...
Use as many powders you want.

CF

 

[Desperatezulu]

You might get a general answer using powder but it will be less precise. If a crude estimate is good enough, then it'll be simpler just to weigh the dry cases and assume that the density of the brass used in both brands is consistent - so any difference in mass is 'likely' to manifest itself in thicker walls and/or web. And thus presume that the heavier cases have more brass ergo smaller internal volume. Fire-formed cases should have the same external dimensions.

How do you get the same powder fill/density if you use powder as your medium? Do you use a drop-tube? Shake it down? Vibrate? Even then, the only thing you can be sure of is the mass of powder. The volume it occupies depends on how it packs in the case (bulk density).

The only reason for measuring to the case mouth is consistency/repeatability - how do you ensure that you've filled to precisely the shoulder/neck junction each time? Peering into the case mouth doesn't grab me as a robust, repeatable technique but to each his own.
Pretty easy to see that you've filled your case to the mouth when using water. And as a reloader, of course your cases were all trimmed to the same length prior to firing;-)

Quickload and GRT use H2O capacity measurements as the cornerstone of their internal ballistics calcs, so you have the added bonus of using your water measurement in a simulation.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hello Desperatezulu,

I must agree about the strong repeatability to use water.
Anyway, I use powder as the medium from a long time ago.
First, I "discard" the neck because it can be thicker in one brand vs other. I want to know the actual useable case capacity.
About how to fill the case with powder, with consistency, I put the charge in the same way every time. I use a drop tube of 30 cm.
Agree with you about the repeatability to fill each and every time the cases to compare, EXACTLY to the neck-shoulder junction. But with care can be done using a dowel, or a bullet if the measure is made with fired and not rezised cases.
I use powder to quickly compare, diferents brands-lots of brass, pouring the powder from the case filled at the base of the neck into the other one and see if the filling is at, below or above, that line.

Best!

CF

 

[oldfart009]

My friend uses RWS for his 300 AI heavy gun in 1000 yd shooting. Says it is outstanding brass. He laments the scarcity of it here in US. If you can find some get it over Norma.

 

[koko]

I have used Norma and RWS brass which I load for my CZ 550 Safari Classic 375 H & H Maguum with very good results. I’ve used 78.5 Grains of Reloader 22 powder along with 375 350 Grain Woodleigh Bullets. I hope this will help. All yhe vrry best to you.

 

[Tintin]

I've not had good experiences with Norma brass in my .404, or more specifically in my shell holder. It was very inconsistent, some would fit in my shell holder, some would not. No such issues with Bertram and Hornady brass.