404 jeffery vs 416 Rigby

[matt85]

this was asked in an after thought in another post recently and my knee jerk reaction was to vote for the 404 Jeffery. however I just sat down with my reloading manuals and took a look at both cartridges. it would seem at least according to the info I have that the 404 Jeffery and the 416 Rigby are nearly ballistic twins which a slight edge going to the Rigby due to the smaller diameter bullet. now according to my books they both push a 400gr bullet at around 2300 fps give or take 100fps depending on type of powder used. my major flaw here is that I don't have any real world experience with these calibers.

what's your experience with these two calibers, are they similar or is my data off? how do they stack up to each other?

thanks
-matt

 

[peras]

Your facts are correct. What I like about the Jeffrey is less recoil and the slightly bigger diameter.

 

[sestoppelman]

I am big fan of the .404 but concede that the Rigby is probably at least the more powerful if not better round. Both are big, the Rigby is bigger. Standard load for the Rigby is 400-410grs at 2400fps. The Jeffery standard is 400grs at somewhere between 2150 and 2300 depending on the maker. Some manuals show up to 2500fps with the .404. But if the Jeff can do that,the Rigby can do more as it has the larger boiler room. Both were meant to deliver their payload at lower pressures, the reason for the oversized cases. If both are loaded in equal guns at max pressure, the Rigby wins.

 

[bassasdaindia]

I am big fan of the .404 but concede that the Rigby is probably at least the more powerful if not better round. Both are big, the Rigby is bigger. Standard load for the Rigby is 400-410grs at 2400fps. The Jeffery standard is 400grs at somewhere between 2150 and 2300 depending on the maker. Some manuals show up to 2500fps with the .404. But if the Jeff can do that,the Rigby can do more as it has the larger boiler room. Both were meant to deliver their payload at lower pressures, the reason for the oversized cases. If both are loaded in equal guns at max pressure, the Rigby wins.

nice thread,I agree with your post that the 416 is the better bullet , however there is something about the 404 Jeff

my view is that the 404 Jeff is like the 40's of the 9.3 x 62 whereby a bigger slower caliber.

I have and love my 416 but I am in search of a 404 Jeff

 

[peras]

I am big fan of the .404 but concede that the Rigby is probably at least the more powerful if not better round. Both are big, the Rigby is bigger. Standard load for the Rigby is 400-410grs at 2400fps. The Jeffery standard is 400grs at somewhere between 2150 and 2300 depending on the maker. Some manuals show up to 2500fps with the .404. But if the Jeff can do that,the Rigby can do more as it has the larger boiler room. Both were meant to deliver their payload at lower pressures, the reason for the oversized cases. If both are loaded in equal guns at max pressure, the Rigby wins.

Balistically true, however we must take into consideration that the original success these cartridges achieved was with velocities off 2150 to 2300fps.This is the velocity which made give them their good reputation on large and/or dangerous game.Ruark and Selby made the Rigby nostalgic and the Jeffrey got its reputation from the various game departments.This all being said I still prefer the lower recoil and bigger diameter off the Jeffrey. In field situations though you will not notice the difference in performance.

 

[sestoppelman]

View attachment 25242View attachment 25243View attachment 25244

Here are some pics to illustrate what we are talking about here. The side by side comparison of the two cases shows the difference in size, which does matter. Then both cases with 100 grs of W760 aboard. Finally the Rigby case with the 113 grs that completely filled the Jeffery case.

 

[peras]

In fact if we look at case capacity there is a big difference. A water capacity of 130 for the rigby and 113 for the Jeffrey the reason for the Rigby case being used so often for the development off larger cartridges.In practice at inteded loads this is what you have:
Rigby 400gr 2400fps 5117 ft/lb Taylor KO 57.1 Recoil 65.8ft/lb
Jeffrey 400gr 2375fps 5011ft/lb Taylor KO 57.4 Recoil 58.2ft/lb
Up to each to decide.

 

[sestoppelman]

All things being equal, if both achieve these velocities, the Rigby will do it at lower pressure due the larger case size. As the great Jack O'Connor might say,"trying to make a big case for one over the other is probably beating a pretty dead horse". For years I thought I might not survive unless I got a Rigby. I did survive it however and instead got the .404 Jeff and I am quite content with it.

 

[peras]

All things being equal, if both achieve these velocities, the Rigby will do it at lower pressure due the larger case size. As the great Jack O'Connor might say,"trying to make a big case for one over the other is probably beating a pretty dead horse". For years I thought I might not survive unless I got a Rigby. I did survive it however and instead got the .404 Jeff and I am quite content with it.

Can not argue with this.Agreed

 

[matt85]

sestoppelman, yer links aren't working.

Paw Print, are you sure about those numbers? I only ask because its hard to believe an extra 25 fps would generate an additional 105 ft/lb of energy and 7.6 ft/lb of recoil using a bullet of equal weight. the Jeffery's bullet is only 0.007 inches wider then the Rigby so I don't see that making a huge difference.

-matt

 

[sestoppelman]

sestoppelman, yer links aren't working.

Paw Print, are you sure about those numbers? I only ask because its hard to believe an extra 25 fps would generate an additional 105 ft/lb of energy and 7.6 ft/lb of recoil using a bullet of equal weight. the Jeffery's bullet is only 0.007 inches wider then the Rigby so I don't see that making a huge difference.

-matt

Not sure about the recoil numbers, but his energy figures are correct. The formula or one of them at least is velocity squared, times bullet weight divided by 450240 for energy. Bullet diameter has nothing to do with energy, its all weight and speed.

The pics open for me, just tried them. I dont know why they came up as attachments, they usually dont. AH issues and my comp issues perhaps.

 

[peras]

sestoppelman, yer links aren't working.

Paw Print, are you sure about those numbers? I only ask because its hard to believe an extra 25 fps would generate an additional 105 ft/lb of energy and 7.6 ft/lb of recoil using a bullet of equal weight. the Jeffery's bullet is only 0.007 inches wider then the Rigby so I don't see that making a huge difference.

-matt

Matt the figures are quoted directly from African dangerous game cartridges by Pierre van der Walt.

 

[sestoppelman]

sestoppelman, yer links aren't working.

Paw Print, are you sure about those numbers? I only ask because its hard to believe an extra 25 fps would generate an additional 105 ft/lb of energy and 7.6 ft/lb of recoil using a bullet of equal weight. the Jeffery's bullet is only 0.007 inches wider then the Rigby so I don't see that making a huge difference.

-matt

See if these work. Click on pic for larger. Captions as above.

 

[bassasdaindia]

great thread,thanks all

 

[matt85]

I stand corrected, I just pulled up the Hornady ballistic calculator and the extra 25 fps does indeed increase the energy by 106 ft/lb. i found a recoil calculator online as well but those numbers came up a little different. the 404 Jeffery comes up as 58 ft/lb of recoil and the 416 Rigby comes up as 60 fp/lb of recoil. this recoil is assuming both cartridges are using 90 grains of powder. (who knows how accurate the calculator is)

on an interesting note, according to my Hornady manual the 404 Jeffery is a more efficient cartridge. it takes less powder to achieve the same results which would mean lighter recoil. at least in this manual they also have very different powder preferences. the most efficient powders for the 404 Jeffery are RL-17 and H414 while the 416 Rigby seems to like H4350.

-matt

 

[sestoppelman]

I stand corrected, I just pulled up the Hornady ballistic calculator and the extra 25 fps does indeed increase the energy by 106 ft/lb. i found a recoil calculator online as well but those numbers came up a little different. the 404 Jeffery comes up as 58 ft/lb of recoil and the 416 Rigby comes up as 60 fp/lb of recoil. this recoil is assuming both cartridges are using 90 grains of powder. (who knows how accurate the calculator is)

on an interesting note, according to my Hornady manual the 404 Jeffery is a more efficient cartridge. it takes less powder to achieve the same results which would mean lighter recoil. at least in this manual they also have very different powder preferences. the most efficient powders for the 404 Jeffery are RL-17 and H414 while the 416 Rigby seems to like H4350.

-matt

Basically anytime you have two cases not too far apart in capacity and of similar caliber, the smaller case is more efficient. The bigger case takes powder more to do the same as the smaller. Compare the .308 to the .30-06, same thing. The .308 is more efficient.

 

[DOC-404]

what's your experience with these two calibers

I have used both. Both are very capable of doing what they are made for - hunting dangerous game.
Both are also, in the right hands, very capable charge stoppers. I prefer the 404 Jeffery, that's why I have one, as did my father and grandfather, both PH's, before me. Four gentlemen who hunted with me, and handled my rifle, now own 404's. It's a matter of preference, is all. Then there is, of course, the history..

 

[peras]

I have used both. Both are very capable of doing what they are made for - hunting dangerous game.
Both are also, in the right hands, very capable charge stoppers. I prefer the 404 Jeffery, that's why I have one, as did my father and grandfather, both PH's, before me. Four gentlemen who hunted with me, and handled my rifle, now own 404's. It's a matter of preference, is all. Then there is, of course, the history..

the history.........and good taste!:humble:

 

[matt85]

I have used both. Both are very capable of doing what they are made for - hunting dangerous game.
Both are also, in the right hands, very capable charge stoppers. I prefer the 404 Jeffery, that's why I have one, as did my father and grandfather, both PH's, before me. Four gentlemen who hunted with me, and handled my rifle, now own 404's. It's a matter of preference, is all. Then there is, of course, the history..

i forgot to mention that DOC-404 is banned from this thread for being biased! :banned: :joke:

since you've tried both perhaps you could tell me if one performs better then the other as slightly longer ranges? this big bore cartridges aren't long range cartridges but i could see making a 100 yard shot.

-matt

 

[416Tanzan]

Most of the above comments are valid when discussing factory ammunition. However, if one handloads, then the capacity of a cartridge may come into play. For example, Layne Simpson, in an article for Rifle Jan-Feb 1989, listed "high-velocity" Rigby loads as a subsection of his testing a particular 416 Rigby rifle. Basically, the capacity of the Rigby in a modern rifle with modern components allows one to load up to 55000 PSI to 60000 PSI safely. Loads can be produced that are over 6000 foot-pounds. For a 400-grain bullet, that means 2600 to 2700 fps. For a 350 grain bullet that means 2780-2850 fps. These are loads that leave the primers with nice round edges and where the cases drop out of the chamber after firing.

See picture of cases with bullet recovered from buffalo, shot at 110 yards:

Double clic to view. The two 416 Rigby cases on the left show rounded primers and were using the same Fed 215M primers as in the 338 WIn Mag case on the right, shown for comparison. The bullet blew/lost its 'petals' but still had enough velocity to create a secondary mushroom. Amazing.

This question only becomes important if using the 416 Rigby as an all-around plains game//dangerous game rifle. The ability to send a 350-grain TTSX bullet downrange at 2800fps allows a 2-inch sightin at 100 yards that will only drop 7" at 300 yards or 21" at 400 yards. That means that a hunter can stay "on the hide" of an eland all the way to 400 yards. And 6000+ ftlbs is useful up close on buffalo, too. Care must be taken, of course, to use a proper bullet that will guarantee penetration at those higher velocities and energies. A bullet whose recommended impact velocity is 1800fps to 2200 fps or 2400 fps should not be used. the bullet needs to be rated for 1800fps up to 2600 or to 2800 fps. The Barnes TSX and TTSX, CEB's, Nosler Partitions, Swift A-frames, and NorthFork bullets are up to this.

So Jeffrey or Rigby in 416? If someone handloads and wants a flat-shooting 416, then the Rigby is the obvious choice. Why load the Rigby down to Remington and Ruger levels? That would be like having a 300 magnum and loading it down to factory 308 or 30-06 levels. For further information on 416 loads, see Ammo Guide or the PDF of the Simpson article on line http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri121partial.pdf.