416 Rigby question

[AZDAVE]

Had a gent here in my area ask me about a Merkel double in 416 Rigby and what the plus's and minus's are. I started to talk about rimmed vs rimless case in a double but realized that all my double's and every one I have shot are all rimmed calibres so have no actual experience shooting a rimless calibre. So to provide sound advice anyone have experience with a rimless in a double? and what has your experience been?

 

[Velo Dog]

Had a gent here in my area ask me about a Merkel double in 416 Rigby and what the plus's and minus's are. I started to talk about rimmed vs rimless case in a double but realized that all my double's and every one I have shot are all rimmed calibres so have no actual experience shooting a rimless calibre. So to provide sound advice anyone have experience with a rimless in a double? and what has your experience been?

Hi AZDAVE,

The first double I ever owned was new Merkel SxS in .375 H&H.
It extracted always without a problem, even though the right side chamber or throat was evidently too tight.

With the factory ammunition it was supposedly regulated for, it badly flattened primers and sometimes pierced primers, causing difficulty in opening the weapon but, once opened, extraction was flawless.

The only double rifle I have now is a 1980's vintage Heym 88B in .458 Winchester with ejectors and it so far has functioned flawlessly.

Nonetheless, I lean toward rimmed or "flanged" cartridges in doubles, because of Murphy's Law.
The reason I bought this .458 was because I saved about $4,000. compared to what I really wanted (exact same rifle but in 450/400 Jeffery.)

Hope this further muddies the water for your friend.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[Pondoro]

Velo, have you considered to rechamber your double to .450 NE..?

Not sure about cost but must be tempting...still use .458 bullets and shoot a classic rimmed NE..

 

[Velo Dog]

Velo, have you considered to rechamber your double to .450 NE..?

Not sure about cost but must be tempting...still use .458 bullets and shoot a classic rimmed NE..

Pondoro,

Yes, when I bought it, I figured that if it gave me any problems, I could send it to Heym or Champlin Arms for this conversion.
I don't think the frame is wide enough to accommodate the .450 No2 cartridge but I do not know for sure.
Also, I presume the dimensions for the .458's belt would be problematic but, both companies were offering that conversion (.458 Winchester to .450 NE 3.25" straight) and so, I presume it is possible.
However, my rifle shoots so well as it is that, I hesitate to change anything now.
An added advantage is that .458 Winchester ammunition is easily available in any of the countries where I would ever hunt.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[Pondoro]

I get you...ammo avaiability in Africa is an important consideration..

 

[AkMike]

I've got a Ruger #1 that was rechambered from a 458 to a 450 NE. It worked well.

 

[Velo Dog]

I've got a Ruger #1 that was rechambered from a 458 to a 450 NE. It worked well.

That's encouraging for me to read when I sometimes think about considering it for my Heym.
But did the Gunsmith have to trim off the base of the chamber, to get rid of the belt groove around it?
I've not looked up the base dimensions on both cartridges but my concern is that the belt on a .458 might be wider than the base on a .450 NE case.
I fear that if removing the belt groove from my chambers is necessary before re-chambering, they'd have to unsolder my barrels, from muzzles to ejectors for trimming, then the re-chambering, then re-join them again ($$$$$$$$$$$).
All this before beginning the regulation process (more $$$$$$$$$$$).
At the moment, my rifle pleases me as it is in .458 Winchester, even though I can only fire a few shots in a row before the sub-dermal bleeding begins - LOL.
It weighs 9.9 pounds empty and IMO, a .458 should weigh about 11 pound (my .458 Lott Mauser weighs 11 lb empty, no scope, no sling).

 

[AkMike]

No the 450 will clean up the belt area as well. It's a re-chamber is all. But the only basic difference between the two cartridges is the lower pressure of the 450. But it may need to be re-regulated if the beast is changed. But maybe not..

You could always get my 1906 Hollis 500/450 3 1/4 or the 450NE Sauer conversion instead.

 

[CAustin]

Why convert at all. That 458 should do whatever you want it to do? Kill big animals for sure!

 

[Velo Dog]

No the 450 will clean up the belt area as well. It's a re-chamber is all. But the only basic difference between the two cartridges is the lower pressure of the 450. But it may need to be re-regulated if the beast is changed. But maybe not..

You could always get my 1906 Hollis 500/450 3 1/4 or the 450NE Sauer conversion instead.

If you're wanting to sell them, PM me when you get a chance.

 

[Velo Dog]

Why convert at all. That 458 should do whatever you want it to do? Kill big animals for sure!

Hi CAustin,

The short answer is, because the Winchester cartridge operates at rather high chamber pressure and the NE one operates at rather low chamber pressure an.

Also, that rim on the .450 NE is comforting, even though my rimless/belted .458 has been ejecting the empties in 100 % reliability so far (I only live 2 miles from a rifle range).

However, regarding exterior ballistics, you are correct, the regular .458 will likely sack anything on earth today (plus a few that croaked during the last Ice Age).

I'm just OCD about rifles and that has very much to do with why I might have it converted someday but, if it ever hiccups, that will get me off the fence for sure.

In the meanwhile, I'm with you on the .458, amigo and for now it will remain in that caliber.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[Pondoro]

Mike...please show some pics of your Hollis .500/450...!

 

[AkMike]

This Hollis is a Leonard built double from 1906. Leonard built most of not all of the Jeffries rifles.
It's a full Nitro not a reproofed BPE. For a few years one of it's 'litter mates" 3 serial numbers off was also here in town. It's amazing that they were reunited for a bit over a hundred years after they were built.

The barrels are engraved, A Hollis and Son, London On the other tube, Rifle Makers to HRH (His Royal Highness) Duke of Connaught.

 

[Pondoro]

That is indeed a nice hammer rifle..

I believe that full-nitro hammers in good condition are rare these days..

A friend has an immaculate 1906 Jeffery top lever hammer rifle in .450/400 3"..

 

[AkMike]

If so I'd be interested to know the tiny numbers near the fore end hanger that are the Leonard numbers. Jeffery used their own serial numbers but the makers serial numbers are the ones under the fore end. It also may be a 'litter mate'.

 

[Pondoro]

I will ask him Mike..

 

[Pondoro]

Finally Mike, the info on the afore mentioned W.J.Jeffery:

W.J.Jeffery Serial Number 15158

The gunmaker was H. Leonard in Birmingham and from what I can see the original cost of manufacture was £1 - 5 - 0d but it also appears that the gun went back to Mr. Leonard in 1935 and additional work was done at a cost of £10 - 0 - 0d. There is no record as to whom the gun was sold.

It was probably regulated with 55 grains of cordite using a 400 grain bullet (so says the proof-marks)




.450/.400 3" case

Hammers with top lever

Rebounding locks

26" barrels

Standard and two (?) leaf rear sight to 300 yards

Anson fore end

Pistol grip

Scroll engraving

Cheek piece (?) (not)

Weight 10¼lbs.

Date of completion 27th February, 1906

Cost to manufacture £1.5.0d

Selling price £1-15-0d

 

[AkMike]

I would like to know the tiny numbers stamped at the forearm hanger. That's where Leonard stamped his numbers. That's the only way to tie it to the Leonard I have.

Thanks.

 

[Pondoro]

Apparently there is no such number at the forearm hanger..