416 Weatherby/Rigby Rifles

[MarineHawk]

I am looking at 416 caliber rifles. One is a 416 Rigby, because of the wide availability and variety of factory ammo--from fairly mild loads like this (Kynoch Ammunition 416 Rigby 410 Grain Woodleigh Welded Core Soft Point Box of 5 - MidwayUSA) to near-Weatherby loads, like this (Cor-Bon DPX Hunter Ammunition 416 Rigby 350 Grain Barnes Triple-Shock X Bullet Hollow Point Lead-Free Box of 20 - MidwayUSA). I also am considering a 416 Weatherby.

For those of you who have experience with the calibers and/or rifles listed below, could you offer any advice? I was considering (with approximate price):

$3,500: CZ 550 in 416 Rigby with the AHR Upgrade #3 listed here: American Hunting Rifles - CZ Owners

$2,900 (retail, not MSRP): Weatherby Custom Mark V Dangerous Game Rifle in 416 Wby:

I plan on using it on a Sept. 2010 Alaska brown bear hunt (possibly a lot of rain) and a June/July 2011 South African hunt (hoping to include cape buffalo if possible).

Here are my thoughts up to this point about each of the following based on the the info I have to date. Am I missing anything I should consider?:

AHR CZ 550 SAFARI:

PROS:
* More handsome. A lot more.

* Fires the Rigby: with more different factory loads available; and easier to find in far away places, like SA.

CONS:
* Probably a little less weather resistent and significantly less ding resistant.

* The ammo I want (the only 350gr factory load) is $230/box: Cor-Bon DPX Hunter Ammunition 416 Rigby 350 Grain Barnes Triple-Shock X Bullet Hollow Point Lead-Free Box of 20 - MidwayUSA

* Unknown how the AHR will recoil on me compared to the Wby.

* About $600 more expensive than Mk V.

* Not sure what response to expect if there is some problem with the gun, especially if AHR goes out of business.

WEATHERBY MK V DGR:

PROS:
* About $600 less expensive than AHR.

* Probably a little better suited to getting wet and banged up.

* I already own and revere a Mk V Accumark in 340 Wby. Familiar with the rifle/operation/maintenance.

* Mk V stock seems to fit and dampen recoil to me.

* The ammo I want (the 350gr factory load) is only $150/box: Weatherby Ammunition 416 Weatherby Magnum 350 Grain Barnes Triple-Shock X Bullet Hollow Point Lead-Free Box of 20 - MidwayUSA

* A little more powerful than the Rigby.

* Comes with proven removable factory brake (which I would not use while hunting, but maybe for "plinking").

* Weatherby will be around forever and stand by their rifles.

* I could always drop it in a walnut stock later.

CONS:
* Not as pretty.

As much as I love the AHR's looks, I think you can see which way I am leaning, but I appreciate any thoughts on what I am overlooking.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

 

[mikeh416Rigby]

I would opt for the CZ in 416 Rigby. They're very well made and the 416 Rigby ammunition is more readily available vs. the Weatherby. I found the ammunition below on Cabela's website. It's manufactured by Norma, and in my 416 Rigby both shoot 1" moa or less.

416 Rigby 400 Gr. Barnes Solid - $119.99

.416 Rigby 400 Gr. TXP (Swift A-Frame) - $129.99

Cabela's -- Norma Rifle Ammunition

 

[MarineHawk]

I would opt for the CZ in 416 Rigby. They're very well made and the 416 Rigby ammunition is more readily available vs. the Weatherby. I found the ammunition below on Cabela's website. It's manufactured by Norma, and in my 416 Rigby both shoot 1" moa or less.

416 Rigby 400 Gr. Barnes Solid - $119.99

.416 Rigby 400 Gr. TXP (Swift A-Frame) - $129.99

Cabela's -- Norma Rifle Ammunition

Thanks Mike. With your screen name, I thought you would recommend the Wby. Just kidding.

Can you tell me if your Rigby is a CZ or something else? Is it stock or customized at all? If it's a CZ, do you think any/all of those AHR upgrades are a good idea?

Thanks again for your advice.

 

[Mike70560]

AHR CZ 550 SAFARI:


CONS:
* Probably a little less weather resistent and significantly less ding resistant.

The Gun Kote AHR puts on all metal is extremely tough. It is better than any blue job on any rifle I own. Wayne can also build it with a composite stock.


* The ammo I want (the only 350gr factory load) is $230/box: Cor-Bon DPX Hunter Ammunition 416 Rigby 350 Grain Barnes Triple-Shock X Bullet Hollow Point Lead-Free Box of 20 - MidwayUSA

With all of that case capacity you may want to consider the 400 gr bullets


* Unknown how the AHR will recoil on me compared to the Wby.

The Rigby should recoil less. Less powder=less recoil, I personally do not like the WBY stock design.


* About $600 more expensive than Mk V.

Reprice with composite stock on the CZ


* Not sure what response to expect if there is some problem with the gun, especially if AHR goes out of business.

Wayne at AHR is first class, he has reworked on CZ for me with the No 2 upgrades. It is worth every penny. He also built a Lott for me from an MRC action. Pleased with both.


Couple of other notes:

With the AHR rifle you will have a double square bridge magnum mauser action, some people consider that style the best there is for a DG rifle.

How many rounds will the Wby hold 1 in the chamber, 2 in the Mag? The CZ will probably handle 1 in the chamber and 3-4 down.

With the AHR rifle you will have NECG sites which some people consider the best in the business.

 

[MarineHawk]

Mike70560:

Thanks for the insight. You make a good case for the CZ/AHR setup. I will probably think about this for a couple weeks, as I don't feel confident about which way to go yet.

"The Gun Kote AHR puts on all metal is extremely tough. It is better than any blue job on any rifle I own. Wayne can also build it with a composite stock. ... Reprice with composite stock on the CZ"

That's a good point. I'll have to check the pricing on that option.

"With all of that case capacity you may want to consider the 400 gr bullets."

Probably for the big African creatures, but I think the 350gr TSX Cor-Bon Rigby and the 350gr TSX Wby loads are about perfect for brown bear, which will be my first hunt with it. Also, I migfht get longer shots at other non-bear opportunities out much farther on the Alaskan hunt (e.g., wolves and wolverine).

"The Rigby should recoil less. Less powder=less recoil, I personally do not like the WBY stock design."

I'm not saying you're wrong, but my 340 Wby Mk V Accumark seems to recoil less than my Rem 700 BDL in 300 Win Mag. It does work well for me. The AHR stock(s) could be as good or better, but I won't know until I buy one, and then ...

"Wayne at AHR is first class, he has reworked on CZ for me with the No 2 upgrades. It is worth every penny. He also built a Lott for me from an MRC action. Pleased with both."

Thanks for that comment. I have not called him yet, but Wayne has responded to my e-mail questions very promptly and helpfully.

"How many rounds will the Wby hold 1 in the chamber, 2 in the Mag? The CZ will probably handle 1 in the chamber and 3-4 down."

The Wby Mk V DGR holds 3+1 in the 416 Wby (has a drop mag that holds one extra round... I just ordered one for my 340 Wby Accumark to make it 4+1 instead of 3+1). So that one is a wash--the CZ also holds 3+1.

Thanks again for your helpful comment.

 

[monish]

Hi! Marine Hawk,
A plain and a simple advice go in for a .416 Weatherby as the stock can be put into a walnut anytime the quality of the weatherbys is undoubtable as i have been using their rifles since last 25 years a 350 grain bullet has a astounding killing power and penetration, as I have used these loads in my cousins .416 weatherby deluxe rifles.
Weatherby always advocated velocity and the killing power and this caliber deviced by by them also stands in the true frame of the advocacy.
The .416 Rigby this royal british cartridge was introduced in 1911 for doubles (flanged) and few in rimless for custom rifles,The initial british load had a 400 grain bullet FMJ & SP with a MV 2350 FPS and ME of 5010 ft. lbs. The MAP for .416 Rigby is 47170 PSI, both the calibres have hard hitting recoil , the weatherby has more 72 ft lbs in a 10 pound rifle.
This is a real dangerous game cartridge and should give excellent performace taking the bears with a clean kill.

Happy Hunting mate !!

Monish

 

[MarineHawk]

Hi! Marine Hawk,
A plain and a simple advice go in for a .416 Weatherby as the stock can be put into a walnut anytime the quality of the weatherbys is undoubtable as i have been using their rifles since last 25 years a 350 grain bullet has a astounding killing power and penetration, as I have used these loads in my cousins .416 weatherby deluxe rifles.
Weatherby always advocated velocity and the killing power and this caliber deviced by by them also stands in the true frame of the advocacy.
The .416 Rigby this royal british cartridge was introduced in 1911 for doubles (flanged) and few in rimless for custom rifles,The initial british load had a 400 grain bullet FMJ & SP with a MV 2350 FPS and ME of 5010 ft. lbs. The MAP for .416 Rigby is 47170 PSI, both the calibres have hard hitting recoil , the weatherby has more 72 ft lbs in a 10 pound rifle.
This is a real dangerous game cartridge and should give excellent performace taking the bears with a clean kill.

Happy Hunting mate !!

Monish

Thanks Monish for the comments. I will mark you down as the lone vote for the Wby for now. Any others? Like I said, I'm really torn between the two options. And you're right, I could always make it look like this down the road:

 

[Ron Duval]

The Weatherby does not have crf, does it?

 

[MarineHawk]

The Weatherby does not have crf, does it?

It is a push feed. I don't know how much of a factor that should be--a lot; a little; in between. on the one hand, I have not ever been able to get my 340 Wby Accumark not to feed from any angle. On the other, I know CRF must be at least a little better. I noticed Chuck Hawks had the follwoing comment:

... With a push feed action, incorrect operation (double stroking) the bolt can result in two cartridges trying to enter the chamber at once, jamming the rifle.
Not that push feed rifles such as the Browning A-Bolt II, Remington Model 700, Sako Model 75, Savage Model 110 series, and Weatherby Mark V are not perfectly acceptable for most purposes. But the tiny margin of extra feeding reliability credited to the controlled feed design gives it the advantage in a rough and tumble situation.

Check out Bolt Action Rifles for Dangerous Game

Does that overstate or understate the concern or get it just right?

 

[Ron Duval]

I like push feed actions for most of my shooting, but whenever life gets too exciting I find that crf is a very good thing.

 

[monish]

Marine Hawk, its a rifle made in HEAVEN , are very practical & handy with a real kill power ballistics ,as you are procuring a rifle to hunt dangerous game in a calibre with tremendous MV and breech pressures so you need to have one of the finest deigned bolt action with nine locking lugs ,gas ports & a chamber to hold the pressures, and Weatherby has been designed to withstand all of that, although the European makes are technically and performance wise very fine firearms, I am advocating for this make after my practical usage and results that I could realise in long span of field usage, I have been using a Mark V deluxe chambered for .375 H&H Mag a .270 WM .300 WM and have recently bought myself a Mark V .460 WM a real Goliath to fire off from ones shoulder eventhough a huge cartridge but not brutish on the shoulder as other makes taking the near equivalent cartridge and loads.
So this is what I feel about a rifle which is hansome and a real killer
do let us know what u finally purchase.

Happy rifle hunting.

Monish

 

[Hank2211]

MarineHawk,

My two bits. I have a CZ in .416 Rigby, though not a fancy as the one you're looking at. It's a solid gun, shoots very well, and it can take a fair bit of banging up.

I will say this, it kicks pretty good too! I haven't shot the .416 Weatherby, but friends who have tell me it kicks even more than the Rigby (and the ballistics tables back them up). If you really need the extra umph, and you're a big guy who isn't shy of recoil, then I wouldn't let this worry me. For me though, the fact that the Rigby is about all the power I would need for just about anything I'd want to shoot at - including cape buffalo - would decide it for me. I don't need the extra power or the recoil that goes with it, and I like nice guns, so that would be it for me! One more thing - put me down as one of those guys who prefers the Mauser feed system when dangerous game is on the menu.

Have fun deciding!

 

[mikeh416Rigby]

Thanks Mike. With your screen name, I thought you would recommend the Wby. Just kidding.

Can you tell me if your Rigby is a CZ or something else? Is it stock or customized at all? If it's a CZ, do you think any/all of those AHR upgrades are a good idea?

Thanks again for your advice.

My 416 Rigby is a Ruger bolt action, and it's a real shooter. I killed a very nice Cape Buffalo Bull with it last year - one shot from +- 160 yards with the 400 grain Barnes TSX bullet - quartering away - caught both lungs and center punched the heart - D.R.T.

The only changes I made to the rifle are the installation of a Pacmeyer Decelerator Recoil Pad, and I replaced the front sight with a red fiber optic sight from NECG.

As far as the AHR upgrades, I like them and feel they add to the value of the rifle.

For the money though, I feel the Ruger can't be beat. Buy a Ruger and put the money you'll save toward a hunt.

 

[michaelhh375]

416...

I am looking at 416 caliber rifles. One is a 416 Rigby, because of the wide availability and variety of factory ammo--from fairly mild loads like this (Kynoch Ammunition 416 Rigby 410 Grain Woodleigh Welded Core Soft Point Box of 5 - MidwayUSA) to near-Weatherby loads, like this (Cor-Bon DPX Hunter Ammunition 416 Rigby 350 Grain Barnes Triple-Shock X Bullet Hollow Point Lead-Free Box of 20 - MidwayUSA). I also am considering a 416 Weatherby.

Hi Marinhawak. Before you decide , read this, "first try then buy..."

Any rifle that has a Recoil Factor of less than 100 can be shot by anyone that can handle a rifle.

Between 100 and 200 is moderate.

Between 200 and 300 is moderately heavy .

Between 300 and 400 is heavy.

Between 400 and 700 is very heavy.

Between 700 and 1000 is extremely heavy.

Between 1000 and 3000 very painful

HH 375 Recoil factor 628,6 700NE Recoil factor 6580.0

416 DAKOTA Recoil factor 1242.0

416 REM Recoil factor 1117.5

416 RIGBY Recoil factor 1187.9

416 WBY Recoil factor 1719.3

 

[enysse]

After shooting my friends 416 Rigby a few weeks ago, I would buy the Rigby, it's not to bad. He has it in a Ruger model...great price, great gun...wish it were mine.

 

[BryceM]

Like Hank2211, I have a basic, field grade .416 Rigby in CZ 550 that I've been shooting for a few months now. I've also owned and used a .300 Wby in Mark V as my primary hunting gun for essentially my entire adult life. All other things being equal, I'd probably opt for the CZ, especially if you're in the business of an AHR upgrade package. For me it comes down mostly to the cartridge. There is endless chatter "out there" about recoil, flinching, marksmanship, and such. To a point, I actually think it's an important consideration. If you're going to use it for DG, you'll probably want to put at least 200-300 rounds through it before hunting. At 10 rounds a day (about all I can realistically do without getting the flinchies with the .416 Rigby) you'll need a bunch of trips to the range. If it beats you up too bad, you'll find reasons not to practice with it. So far my CZ has been actually very enjoyable to shoot, much less of an issue than you'd be led to believe from reading shooting magazines. I don't really see a need to tackle much more though.

The .416 WBY only gets you a few hundred fps more but at the cost of significantly more recoil. At typcial DG ranges, the difference in trajectory isn't meaningful. I love the Mark V action and short bolt-throw, but there is something about the CZ action that is also very reassuring. I really doubt you'll see much real-world "dead-animal" difference between the two rounds, making all the extra recoil of the WBY meaningless.

Would the custom shop at Weatherby be willing to make a .416 Rigby on the Mark V action? Wondering out loud......

 

[MarineHawk]

Would the custom shop at Weatherby be willing to make a .416 Rigby on the Mark V action? Wondering out loud......

They do make it in a 416 Rem.

 

[MarineHawk]

Thanks to all of you for your very helpful comments. They have influenced my thinking, and made me more hesitant about my initial leaning toward the Wby, but I think I am heading (not sure yet) that way. In case anyone is interested in my long-winded explanation, here it is. I appreciate any helpful comments and corrections. You are all a really great and helpful group of hunters.

PRICE/ASTHETICS:
I just realized today that I underpriced the AHR #3 upgrade when added to the price of the rifle would be a full $4,000 (and it would have no removable brake that comes standard with the Wby). The Wby would be $2,900 and with cheaper ammo of the type I want for now. I could do the #2 upgrade on the CZ, which I am also considering, but less excited about than the #3.

FAMILIARITY/RELIABILITY:
I find the following comments from American Hunter’s John Zent fairly convincing:

Conventional wisdom says Mauser-type CRF prevents malfunctions that may occur when an excited hunter short-strokes the bolt and two shells wind up jammed together in the loading port. Most often the hunter will have to clear the mess by hand. In any situation that's awkward and inconvenient-with dangerous game it could be fatal. Furthermore, Mauser-type extractors are almost always wider than other extractors, and thus their greater gripping surface provides more strength and reliability for removing cases stuck in the chamber.

Dread the notion that a belligerent bear or buffalo might push-feed us into oblivion if our gun jams, but it's not all about gun design. Although all the experts we consulted agreed that Mauser-type bolt-guns have an edge in reliability, they were nearly unanimous in cautioning that the matter is not so one-sided as many seem to think.

"No action is foolproof," says Coogan. "I've seen problems with both [types]. My closest call ever came when a client's custom 98 Mauser locked up during an elephant charge. Don't let the Mauser aura make you overconfident." Sisk agrees: "The proficiency of the person operating the bolt handle is far more important than the design. You can make them all jam if you don't manipulate them right."

This goes back to familiarity to me, which is starting to take hold of my mind. If I had a CZ 550 and loved it, I almost certainly would get one in the 416. But, it’s the opposite. I’m comfortable and confident with my current Mk V and I think, consistent with Zent’s suggestion above, that might make the Wby DGR as much or more reliable for me than the CZ.

I’ve also read elsewhere that, while most CZ 550s are subperb, there are a few that don’t function as well. And I would be buying a CZ and having someone else dramatically change it before I ever got it. This means that I would have two people to blame, which means no one to blame, if something didn’t work out right. And I’ve never heard of anyone having troubles with a Mk V from the Custom Shop. Maybe there are, but I haven’t heard about it.

PERFORMANCE:
The 350gr 416 Wby has some pretty flat and powerful numbers fairly-far downrange (note that the Wby spec sheet is using the X-Bullet B.C.; so it’s too optimistic; my more sober numbers are based on the B.C. of the 350gr TSX (not the no-longer-used) X-Bullet, and Wby’s published MV:

Yds / Vel. / Impact / Energy / Drift (zeroed at 225-yds)
000 / 2880 / -1.75 / 6446 / 0
050 / 2742 / 1.03 / 5843 / 0.66
100 / 2615 / 2.66 / 5315 / 1.33
150 / 2492 / 3.01 / 4826 / 2.46
200 / 2372 / 1.95 / 4373 / 4.1
250 / 2256 / -0.66 / 3956 / 6.27
300 / 2143 / -4.97 / 3569 / 9.01
350 / 2033 / -11.2 / 3212 / 12.38
400 / 1927 / -19.5 / 2886 / 16.41
450 / 1824 / -30.2 / 2586 / 21.16
500 / 1726 / -43.5 / 2315 / 26.68

At 350-yds, it drops only 11 inches and still produces 3,200 ft-lbs of energy with a stout mono-metal 350gr bullet. Pretty amazing to me.

The bullet never climbs or falls more than 3-inches from the sight line out to about 280yds.
That load might work well in Alaska, in addition to close-in DG situations, for shooting a wounded bear in the distance, or shooting other targets of opportunity (wolf, wolverine, black bear). And it might really be a one-rifle load for all Africa short of Elephant (I doubt I will ever get to hunt one of those).

Wouldn’t that mono-metal bullet would work pretty well on everything from buffalo on down? If not, I could switch to the sold 400gr bullets for buffalo, but that more than a year away.

The 350gr C-B 416 Rigby loading is close, but it recoils about the same, and costs about $80/box more and it would cost me a bunch more to have a custom, removable brake that comes with the Wby.

RECOIL:
I think the 416 Rugby advantage in lower recoil might not be as great as it otherwise would be for a few reasons, at least in my case:

First: I don’t hand load for now; so I’m limited to factory ammo for now.

Assuming the same rifle weights, bullet (plus powder) exiting momentum determines the recoil energy.

The typical 400gr / 2,700fps Wby load produces 20.0% more momentum than the typical 400gr / 2,400fps Rigby load. That 20% is probably pretty significant. However, at least on my bear hunt, I would be using the Weatherby 350gr TSX load. It produces only 5% more momentum than the 400gr Rigby loads.

The only similar factory load in the Rigby is the $230/box 2,750fps Cor-Bon one linked above, and it (while an amazing loading in the Rigby) produces only 4.5% less momentum than the $150/box 350gr Wby load.

In other words, if the 400gr Rigby loads aren’t that bad, the 350gr Wby loads might not bee too much worse. Both should recoil a lot milder than the 400gr Wby loads.

Second: Thnere are some 2,600fps, 400gr A-Square 416 Wby loads that are a little closer to the standard Rigby (only 8% more momentum). And, if all else fails, I could use this as an excuse and find a way to begin hand-loading and can create a Rigby-type load or something halfway in between).

Third (and perhaps most import): One of the reasons I don’t worry too much about that, is that, if I get the Wby DGR (still working that out in my mind), it comes with a removable Accubrake. Generally, I’ve been skeptical of brakes on hunting rifles, but there were on a lot of USMC rifles I used without a problem. I’ve read a lot of feedback from owners, and they apparently do work well (but loud). I talked to the Wby Custom Shop at length, and they stand by these numbers: Accubrake | Weatherby.com
Essentially, a braked 416 Wby shooting full-house 400gr loads recoils like an unbraked 300 Wby or 375 H&H—both of which recoil less than my unbraked 340 Wby, which is not that bad. And, I’m going to be using a milder-recoiling (lower momentum) 350gr load.

I very possibly would practice with the brake (and double hearing protection) only outdoors on private land and hunt without the brake (depending on how loud it seems to me and what my guide says).

SUMMARY:
Anyway, all of these things are making me lean back toward the Wby: cheaper rifle; cheaper ammo; familiar operation and maintenance; reliable in my experience; fits well for me; a little better performance downrange; recoil likely can be mitigated.

 

[monish]

Marine Hawk, thats a very elaborate study that you have been up with for the .416- Rigby and The Wthrby , you should go in for the weatherby as its a complete rifle with a very innovative components, and as they say ,"ITS NOT THE RIFLE ITS THE MAN BEHIND THE RIFLE" and both have to gel well to hunt down from a dik dik to a elephant , hope you agree?
Go in for a Weatherby as you have studied very well the ballistics, power and the impact .

happy purchasing a good rifle .

Monish

 

[Big5]

I must be losing it. The only real decision I see here is the stock; i.e., synthetic or wood, period. The rest seems rather academic. In reality either rifle is capable of killing anything on the planet and in all likelihood the average hunter would only favor the rifle for field use a selective few times.

Sorry to seem so critical, but in my humble opinion I agree with poster ‘monish’. . . it’s not so much the rifle as it is the man behind the rifle.
.