4457 and return to the US

[Eric Zelanko]

Greetings,

Upon our return from Namibia a couple of weeks ago, my brother and I had a different experience in collecting our rifles at Dulles (IAD). First, the agents held all six returning hunters on the flight until they inspected everyone's rifles and 4457s. Second, they made copies of each of our 4457s. We were also told something about us and the rifles being checked in NICI???? (not exactly sure what the agent said) And lastly, they tried to make a rep from Ethiopian Air walk us to our next destination. For five of us, that was our vehicles to drive to our homes which the rep didn't totally comprehend. We ended up taking our rifles from the cart and going our separate ways.

Although strangers who hadn't met before, the six of us talked while waiting and this process was radically different from any of our previous trips.

While I have nothing to hide, I was concerned about the copies of our 4457s being made. What happens to that copy? Who has access? Why has this been instituted? Has a new procedure been put in place I'm not aware of? I checked with my federal rep and he too is unaware of any changes and wondered if this is an IAD thing only or is it happening at other airports. Thus, I'm asking if anyone has had similar experiences, especially with customs copying the 4457.

Share your experiences if it has so I can let him know. -z-

 

[BRICKBURN]

Interesting....

 

[JPetroni]

Greetings,

Upon our return from Namibia a couple of weeks ago, my brother and I had a different experience in collecting our rifles at Dulles (IAD). First, the agents held all six returning hunters on the flight until they inspected everyone's rifles and 4457s. Second, they made copies of each of our 4457s. We were also told something about us and the rifles being checked in NICI???? (not exactly sure what the agent said) And lastly, they tried to make a rep from Ethiopian Air walk us to our next destination. For five of us, that was our vehicles to drive to our homes which the rep didn't totally comprehend. We ended up taking our rifles from the cart and going our separate ways.

Although strangers who hadn't met before, the six of us talked while waiting and this process was radically different from any of our previous trips.

While I have nothing to hide, I was concerned about the copies of our 4457s being made. What happens to that copy? Who has access? Why has this been instituted? Has a new procedure been put in place I'm not aware of? I checked with my federal rep and he too is unaware of any changes and wondered if this is an IAD thing only or is it happening at other airports. Thus, I'm asking if anyone has had similar experiences, especially with customs copying the 4457.

Share your experiences if it has so I can let him know.

Indeed, very odd. First of all, why would THEY need a copy of a official document that was issued by another government entity, customs, that no doubt has a copy and official signature from a customs officer from your nearest airport.

Secondly, why would, I am assuming, DHS think they could try to influence a employee of a private corporation to do a job that is clearly under their responsibility.
Just my opine but if one looks at the History of Government’s, across the board regardless of the country or system of governance, one thing hold true. All Love Lists.

Thanks for posting your experience.

JP

 

[HuntingGold]

The NCIC check is to check to see if the article is stolen. Strange they felt the need to do that as it already would've/should've been done when obtaining the 4457.

 

[Anbessa Gedai]

Indeed, very odd. First of all, why would THEY need a copy of a official document that was issued by another government entity, customs, that no doubt has a copy and official signature from a customs officer from your nearest airport.

Secondly, why would, I am assuming, DHS think they could try to influence a employee of a private corporation to do a job that is clearly under their responsibility.
Just my opine but if one looks at the History of Government’s, across the board regardless of the country or system of governance, one thing hold true. All Love Lists.

Thanks for posting your experience.

JP

JP, yess indeed . . very odd. One comment re your post above; "that no doubt has a copy . . "
actually no govt department is supposed to have a copy of the 4457 (unless the process has changed). Admittedly I haven't obtained one in a while, but when I did, no copy was taken . . the original is signed and stamped and it is the traveler's responsibility to present the original document when importing the items. If a govt entity kept a record, that would constitute more or less a federal gun registration system, which fortunately the USA does not have. Much to say regarding this, but I'll bite my tongue for now . .

 

[JimP]

As for a copy of a 4457, I have no idea if they might make a copy of it or not when I have obtained mine. They always disappear into a office or a back room to stamp it and bring it back out to me.

 

[JPetroni]

Anbessa
Right, LOL. You mean like the copy that was taken from Eric and the other gentlemen.

Jim
Same here when I went, have to get the stamp Sir. Be right back

I guess in the end everybody, is on somebody’s
List LOL

 

[JPetroni]

I have found, that in general, the observation of actions is the key to the to the truth.

In reality they were just doing their jobs. Just like we do ours. And 4457’s do keep us keep us from getting caught up in whole customs import tax situation for our expensive items we take abroad.

 

[Wheels]

Breezed through return at DFW in November. I read serial numbers, agent confirmed paperwork. Two of us spent less than five minutes from walking up to agent to walking away. Both of us had two rifles. Smoothest/quickest experience ever.

Probably has more to do with location and management at the location.

 

[CoElkHunter]

As for a copy of a 4457, I have no idea if they might make a copy of it or not when I have obtained mine. They always disappear into a office or a back room to stamp it and bring it back out to me.

When I obtained mine, the customs guy (one man operation) stamped mine before he even checked the serial numbers on the rifles. In fact, I had made two originals and he stamped both. He never made a copy of anything.

 

[sestoppelman]

Pretty bizarre! Last time I came thru customs I ran into a guy who insisted that I should have listed my rifles on the paperwork given out on the plane, the one that you list for overseas purchases!
I told the clown they were my rifles when I left and showed him the 4457.
He didnt care about that, he wanted them itemized on the return plane form. He chewed me out and sent us on our way.
What a maroon!

 

[CoElkHunter]

Pretty bizarre! Last time I came thru customs I ran into a guy who insisted that I should have listed my rifles on the paperwork given out on the plane, the one that you list for overseas purchases!
I told the clown they were my rifles when I left and showed him the 4457.
He didnt care about that, he wanted them itemized on the return plane form. He chewed me out and sent us on our way.
What a maroon!

He probably went on to be Chief of the CBP back then? Ha! Ha! Ha!

 

[Areaonereal]

I am sure any information on your 4457 is sitting on record in some form of storage in a server accessible by any governmental agency at will. When the CBP agent disappears with your 4457 what do you think he is doing when he sits down and pecks away on his computer. It has happened every time I get an updated 4457. When entering thru Newark the CBP agent typed in info from my 4457/and my passport. They retained my passport thru the whole process and returned it upon final physical inspection of my rifle by the third agent it went thru….thirty minutes from start to finish. My experience is that very few CBP are knowledgeable or understand the process and use of the 4457, little if any training for that, especially the female agents…are or have seem to be the lost generation in regards to clearing your firearm….ORD has some of those, if you can find them at their prescribed location.

 

[MTA]

Im sure this wont be the last bit of 4475 issues to pop up. The current form expires on 9/30/2022 and the .gov hasn't posted a newer version yet

 

[C.W. Richter]

If they simply do the check when you complete your 4457 and Depart the US, there should be no further issues upon return, with the executed form in-hand. Darn you for owning previously documented property! A fine example of Big Gov't in "action." Perhaps security is up to protect the dumb ones in office?

 

[Troubleshooter]

Probably has more to do with location and management at the location.

That's the excuse that TSA gave us at Newark last August -- "I know what the regulations say, but this is our local SOP." The one fellow who requested a copy of the SOP was (not surprisingly) told no.

In fact, I had made two originals and he stamped both. He never made a copy of anything.

That was my experience as well. Everything happened right there at the counter, no back offices involved. Issued my 4457, wished me a good hunt, and sent me on my way.

My experience is that very few CBP are knowledgeable or understand the process and use of the 4457, little if any training for that, especially the female agents…are or have seem to be the lost generation in regards to clearing your firearm….ORD has some of those, if you can find them at their prescribed location.

You had me at "very few CBP are knowledgeable." Like the agent at Newark who asked one hunter to remove the bolt from his rifle before closing the case -- his DOUBLE rifle.

 

[Tanks]

At LAX last August they just checked the serial numbers and ran them to see if they were stolen.

Interesting was at departure I was pulled aside and had to open the case and had them verify that I had a 4457 and the serial numbers were correct.

 

[375Fox]

This was my experience last October coming through Dulles also. I was directed to secondary inspection, waited for Ethiopian to bring my rifle directly there and my name to be called, they ran check to verify rifle wasn’t stolen, then walked me to United counter to check in again. They may have made copy of 4457. I can’t remember but doesn’t bother me if they do since they issued it to begin with. It was more time consuming than Atlanta but wouldn’t at all deter me from bringing my rifle again.

 

[One Day...]

Capricious decisions

The reality nowadays seems to be that every CBP agent, every airline counter employee, every airport cop, etc. can make their own private rule, in complete disregard, and apparent willful ignorance, of what the actual legal or regulatory requirements are.

This is extremely concerning because law enforcement becomes an issue of personal whim, bias, and opinion about what the process should be, or what people should not be allowed to do (e.g. hunt or travel with firearms) as opposed to what the law is.

There is of course no requirement about making copies of Forms 4457, recording serial numbers, registering firearms, etc. etc. Actually, there are very clear legal prohibitions against such actions.

I hesitate between being annoyed at the lack of professionalism of organizations that are apparently incapable of training their employees to comply with a process; and being worried that there is now apparently no predicting what can happen during a hunting trip air travel.

For example, last summer before COVID in JFK, NY, coming back from Jo'Burg and transiting from South African to Jet Blue for Phoenix, AZ, the luggage handler (not even the counter agent, just the handler!) refused to put on the belt my suitcase that was just checked, because it was a Pelican brand suitcase (1605 Air Case), and he deemed it to be a gun case, even though he could see my actual gun case (Pelican 1700) going through the TSA inspection machine. I had to call on a Supervisor to get my suitcase put on the belt !?!?!?!?

There is a legal term for this overall issue, it is "capricious decision" and it seems that it is now entirely OK for airport agents, airline agents, CBP agents, security agents, etc. to make capricious decisions. Of course not all of them do, but the empirical evidence seems to be that this is a rapidly growing trend, and that they can do it in complete impunity.

THAT my friends is another really bad sign for where our society is headed...