450/400 3" double as a stopping rifle?

[Kevin Peacocke]

Hello All, does anyone here have experience of a 450/400 3" double as a stopping rifle on Buffalo? Up to the job, or not?

 

[Fixfire]

I was wondering that as well…..thanks for asking.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Haven’t used one personally but as you know, better than the 3-1/4” guns

 

[Just a dude in BC]

I personally don't think it has enough mustard to be a stopping rifle.
If you consider a load of:
400 gr @ 2150fps (which is arguably a bit faster thank normal).
You get figures that look like this:
KE: 4100 foot lbs
Momentum: 122
Taylor KO: 50

When you think of common rifles used by PH's, it tends to be things like:
500 NE, or 470 NE In doubles; or
458 lott, 505 gibbs in bolt guns.

Of those, the weakest is the 470 nitro, and its figures are around 25% more across the board.
KE: 5100 ft lbs
Momentum: 153
Taylor KO: 72

So mathematically the choices being made by PH's tend to point to a 450/400 being a bit anemic for stopping. BUT... I do think they make a fabulous cal for visiting hunters. They have great figures compared to their recoil, and make sweet handling rifles. It just looks like you need a little more to address a charge.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

For "Stoppers" on charging Cape buffalo, I'd personally recommend .450 bore & 500Gr bullets at 2150 FPS as an acceptable minimum. Esp. in thick Jesse where low visibility limits one's opportunities for picked shots at the close ranges where the charging Cape buffalo are invariably shot. This is what seven out of ten follow up jobs on wounded Cape buffalo look like (esp. in Tanzania or Zimbabwe).

But .450/400 Nitro Express is still an excellent Cape buffalo caliber in general. My Tanzanian white hunter friend, Mark Sullivan of Nitro Express Safaris has actually stopped a couple of charging Cape buffalo bulls with an Army & Navy boxlock ejector in .450/400 Nitro Express 3.25". His field observations mirror my own assessments:

For stopping a charging Cape buffalo with body shots, It's a little on the lighter side. But it will beautifully do the trick if you take a brain shot under the inbound bovine's boss when the animal is less than seven yards away and is lowering it's horns in order to attack.

 

[Rare Breed]

I personally don't think it has enough mustard to be a stopping rifle.
If you consider a load of:
400 gr @ 2150fps (which is arguably a bit faster thank normal).
You get figures that look like this:
KE: 4100 foot lbs
Momentum: 122
Taylor KO: 50

When you think of common rifles used by PH's, it tends to be things like:
500 NE, or 470 NE In doubles; or
458 lott, 505 gibbs in bolt guns.

Of those, the weakest is the 470 nitro, and its figures are around 25% more across the board.
KE: 5100 ft lbs
Momentum: 153
Taylor KO: 72

So mathematically the choices being made by PH's tend to point to a 450/400 being a bit anemic for stopping. BUT... I do think they make a fabulous cal for visiting hunters. They have great figures compared to their recoil, and make sweet handling rifles. It just looks like you need a little more to address a charge.

The 450-400 is a fantastic caliber! However I know few PHs that would consider it a “stopping” caliber.

 

[Green Chile]

Great hunting caliber without a doubt. I don't know of any PHs using one as a stopper.

 

[chashardy]

Not sure it was a 3", but my PH in South Africa carried a 450 on 3 buffalo hunts with me.

 

[Green Chile]

He carried a 450 or a 450/400? There's a big difference.

 

[Pondoro]

For "Stoppers" on charging Cape buffalo, I'd personally recommend .450 bore & 500Gr bullets at 2150 FPS as an acceptable minimum. Esp. in thick Jesse where low visibility limits one's opportunities for picked shots at the close ranges where the charging Cape buffalo are invariably shot. This is what seven out of ten follow up jobs on wounded Cape buffalo look like (esp. in Tanzania or Zimbabwe).

But .450/400 Nitro Express is still an excellent Cape buffalo caliber in general. My Tanzanian white hunter friend, Mark Sullivan of Nitro Express Safaris has actually stopped a couple of charging Cape buffalo bulls with an Army & Navy boxlock ejector in .450/400 Nitro Express 3.25". His field observations mirror my own assessments:

For stopping a charging Cape buffalo with body shots, It's a little on the lighter side. But it will beautifully do the trick if you take a brain shot under the inbound bovine's boss when the animal is less than seven yards away and is lowering it's horns in order to attack.

Based on this..and my buffalo hunt in late june I would argue the .450/400 is not a true stopper..since it is on the light side on body shots during a charge..

I used my Krieghoff .470 and shot a big old bull with 2 shots (heart and lung) at 25m...he staggered and fell not able to move on.. The 500 grain Hornady DGX Bonded completely trashed his lungs..

Now, I have a double in .450/400 3 1/4...and I have a lot of confidense in the 400 grainer but I must confess that I feel more secure to anchor big bulls at short ranges with the .470..

 

[BeeMaa]

I've been told by a number of PH's that a "stopping" caliber needs at least 5000 lb-ft of energy to get the job done and STOP a buffalo (elephant, rhino...etc) in its tracks with consistency. The 450/400NE falls short of this number by 25% and that's a huge margin.

Even the famed Jack Lott thought the 458WM was on the light side after a run in with a Cape buffalo in Mozambique. Of course this spawned the 458LOTT which is a hell of a thumper. Here are some numbers for comparison sake.

450/400NE 3" 400 grain Hornady DGX - 3732 lb-ft at 2050 fps*
458WM 500 grain Hornady DGX - 5084 lb-ft at 2140 fps*
458LOTT 500 grain Hornady DGX - 5873 lb-ft at 2300 fps*
470NE 3.25" - 500 grain Hornady DGX - 5132 lb-ft at 2150 fps*
500NE 3" - 570 grain Hornady DGX - 5688 lb-ft at 2120 fps*

The 450/400NE 3" would make a wonderful client dangerous game rifle because of how easy shooting it is. But these same traits are what make it undesirable as a stopping rifle.

*Data taken from Hornady website for all cartridges.

 

[BeeMaa]

To put it another way...would you consider the 416RUGER to be a "stopping" cartridge?

Because if you think the 450/400NE 3" is a stopper, the 416RUGER shoots a larger diameter bullet and still makes over 5000 lb-ft of energy. I know NO ONE who would consider using a 416RUGER as stopping rifle.

 

[Altitude sickness]

If your looking

Jn Rigby & Co "Special 450 Bore Rifle For Big Game." for sale

Jn Rigby & Co "Special 450 Bore Rifle For Big Game." for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

 

[Luvthunt]

If the 450/400 is not enough then why does many PHs carry a 375 HH ?

 

[Pondoro]

If the 450/400 is not enough then why does many PHs carry a 375 HH ?

That is what some can afford..many PH´s do carry large bore rifles, bolt or double..

 

[BeeMaa]

If the 450/400 is not enough then why does many PHs carry a 375 HH ?

That is what some can afford..many PH´s do carry large bore rifles, bolt or double..

Exactly. It's all about the money.

A bolt action 458WM is much more affordable than any double rifle. When a PH is able to afford a double rifle is about the same time they have qualified to PH on dangerous game. But for those that haven't, the 375H&H (or 9.3 in some instances) is the minimum required.

 

[BeeMaa]

And...

375H&H 300 grain Hornady DGX - 4262 lb-ft at 2530*
450/400NE 3" 400 grain Hornady DGX - 3732 lb-ft at 2050 fps*

 

[Fixfire]

And...

375H&H 300 grain Hornady DGX - 4262 lb-ft at 2530*
450/400NE 3" 400 grain Hornady DGX - 3732 lb-ft at 2050 fps*

Thank you for this!! I was wonder this exact info. By chance do you easily have available for 416 rigby and 470 nitro??

 

[BeeMaa]

Thank you for this!! I was wonder this exact info. By chance do you easily have available for 416 rigby and 470 nitro??

I'm not sure of the accuracy, but I know it's a lot better than it was back in the 1960's when Jack Lott had his issues with the 458WM. Turns out Winchester was quite optimistic about their ballistics, while others just called them downright lies.

Pick your caliber...
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/#!/

 

[Fixfire]

Thank you!!!