450 Rigby vs 460 Weatherby

[Ray B]

According to what I've read, Roy Weatherby was looking for an improvement over his 375 Weatherby when he saw the 416 Rigby case and concluded that it would be a great starting point. A belt was added and it was necked up to .375 to become the 378 Weatherby. Further expansion to .458 yielded the 460 Weatherby, so indirectly, the 460 Weatherby could be considered a .460/416 Rigby.

Also, according to what I've read, the owner of Rigby concluded that he wanted a 458 caliber rifle based on their 416 Rigby cartridge. So a .458/416 Rigby was made and it was called the 450 Rigby.

So, other than having a belt/or not and having a shoulder versus a double radius, is there a significant difference between the 460 Wby and the 450 Rigby?

 

[matt85]

your not going to see a big difference in performance between the cartridges. if i was asked to pick one i would pick which ever one had the most reliable source of brass for.

no offense intended but i disagree with calling the 460 WBY a 460/416 Rigby. while the 460 WBY is based off the 416 Rigby dimensions, it is significantly different and you cannot make 460 WBY brass from 416 Rigby brass. however you could call the 450 Rigby a 416/450 Rigby (parent bore is first) as its simply a necked up 416 Rigby.

-matt

 

[Ray B]

while the 460 WBY is based off the 416 Rigby dimensions, it is significantly different

-matt

Other than the differences that I noted (belt and radius shoulder) what are these "significant" differences?

 

[Lbarr265]

Other than the differences that I noted (belt and radius shoulder) what are these "significant" differences?

Double radius shoulder would be the biggest one. It’s a hallmark of a Weatherby round, I can’t think of any others that do that.

Saami specs for the two show the shoulder is significantly different.

 

[Ray B]

So as noted, what aspects of the cartridge excluding the belt and shoulder are significantly different?

 

[Lbarr265]

So as noted, what aspects of the cartridge excluding the belt and shoulder are significantly different?

As you can see in the diagrams I attached the width before and after the shoulder, and the base, gives the weatherby a more significant taper. The weatherby also has about 4 1/2% more case capacity. Part of this is caused by the taper and part is caused by the shoulder ending farther forward than on the rigby

 

[lwaters]

I read an article of Jack O' Connor where he used 460 Weatherbye cases to reload a 416 Rigby by turning the belt of the case on a lay.

 

[IvW]

Chamber pressure: 450 Rigby max 58 000 psi, 460 Weatherby 65 000 psi.

Recoil: The recoil is so severe on the 460 that it comes factory fitted with a muzzle brake.

Headspace: 460 headspaces on the belt and the 450 on the shoulder.

Barrel twist: 460, 1:16 so firing heavier caliber bullets or the standard 500 gr at lower velocity may cause stabilisation issues. The 450 Rigby can shoot 550 gr bullets at modest velocity without this issue due to a tighter barrel twist.

Bullet performance: @ 2700 fps many standard bullets cannot hold up to the 460's velocity, increasing the chances of wounding.

Penetration: The same 500 gr solid from 450 Rigby @2300 fps will out penetrate the same bullet from a 460 @ 2700 fps.

Action: 460 Weatherby, only available from Weatherby, uses a push feed action, a no no on a DG rifle.

Accuracy: Due to the huge amount of recoil, most people just cannot shoot the 460 accurately enough. It will slowly beat you until you give up.

Extraction: Due to the tight tolerances of the chambers on the 460, as well as high operating pressures, extraction of spent cases are an issue.

I could continue but overall the 450 Rigby makes a lot more sense as a DG cartridge than what a 460 Weatherby does.

The biggest significant difference would be that the 450 Rigby is a good choice for African DG and the 460 Weatherby is a rather poor choice.

 

[flatwater bill]

LvW...............a good summary probably explaining why the big Wby never really caught on in Africa. A custom rifle could be ordered in this caliber that would address many of the shortcomings listed above. ..................but there might still be better choices........FWB

 

[Baz 500]

I had a 460 Weatherby for nearly 30 years, and put through it approximately 250 rounds through it,( 124 grns 4350 500 grn Hornady sp's) and I have hunted cape buff with a 500 nitro, "but for pure unadulterated raw power "on the likes of scrub bulls, there is "nothing" I have seen that will match one for power. One bull in particular ran out of a dry river bed and crossed in front of me at about 20 yds, I hit it on the shoulder, and according to my mate, absolutely blew it of his feet, it also broke both shoulders with a soft point. Actually Dr Ray will verify a shot I did on a Brumby some years ago at approx. 300 metres, and flattened it. They are also not that bad to shoot contrary to what a lot of people say.
Cheers Baz.

 

[IvW]

I had a 460 Weatherby for nearly 30 years, and put through it approximately 250 rounds through it,( 124 grns 4350 500 grn Hornady sp's) and I have hunted cape buff with a 500 nitro, "but for pure unadulterated raw power "on the likes of scrub bulls, there is "nothing" I have seen that will match one for power. One bull in particular ran out of a dry river bed and crossed in front of me at about 20 yds, I hit it on the shoulder, and according to my mate, absolutely blew it of his feet, it also broke both shoulders with a soft point. Actually Dr Ray will verify a shot I did on a Brumby some years ago at approx. 300 metres, and flattened it. They are also not that bad to shoot contrary to what a lot of people say.
Cheers Baz.

The one thing that not only matches it but beats for consistency and reliability is my 500 Jeff loaded with 570 gr Rhino bullets @ 2350 fps. I have stopped Rhino, Elephant, Cape buffalo and Male Lion on many occasions only ever needing one shot. Some as close as 7 yards. Talk about flattening or switching everything off instantaneously I have never used or seen All in a recoil manageable rifle that takes 4 rounds, is 100% reliable and has never ever let me down.

The 500 NE with 570 gr bullets @2100 fps is a fine DG stopping rifle but the 500 Jeff with above load flattens them everytime.

With all due respect, I know Scrub bulls can be tough, but they sure ain't Cape Buffalo! As for Brumbies, well it is a horse and I would immagine using a 500 Jeff on one would have the same flattening effect. 300 meters is a long way out there and shots like that on DG are not taken.

The 460 Weatherby with full power loads is a beast to shoot and the recoil is not manageable at least by the normal man out there.

Weatherby rifles have issues(I know, I own one that use to be a 460 Weatherby out of their custom shop). It only takes two in the mag. It has a stupid allen key bolt right below the bolt, that secures the firing pin and is part of the safety mechanism, this needs to be kept tight, otherwise the rifle either fires when you take it off safe or it does not fire at all. Mine did that and it is a real confidence breaker as well as a huge no no on a DG rifle. It is a push feed action which is also not desirable. Weatherby are not held in high regard as DG back up rifles.

Horses(or brumbies) for courses but I for one will never use a 460 Weatherby again and I will also not encourage anybody else to do so, too many bad experiences with them on DG.

A 340 Weatherby for long range plainsgame may be the lone exception.

 

[8x68]

When I was researching reloading data for my 450 (not much available in North America so I contacted PH's & Game Wardens in various parts of Africa). Karl Stumpfe basically said you have a 460 Weatherby minus about 6%. That's what I based my load data on.
This is a bit off topic. Hope its OK. Here is a target that I just shot in interesting weather conditions recently.
Rifle: CZ Safari 450 Rigby. Load is Hornady 350gr FN bullet (same as you would use in the 45/70) 123.3gr's of W760, FED 215 primers. Horneber case. Muzzle velocity is 2750fps (I don't recommend shooting a whitetail deer at 20yds with this load...yes I did. Long story!).
Computer calculated drop at 22" so the aimpoint was at the top of the board. Each penciled square is an inch.
First shot was top circle just to the right, next two were just below the circle. Three to the right were with about a 15mph crosswind (storm was coming in). Adjusted for the crosswind and hit dead centre. Then it got rainy, misty and the wind started swirling around. Shot about 8" below bullseye was next after dead centre hit. Then it got challenging to see the target. Hence the bottom left, top left shots. Target was at 300yds. Trying to see that far with a 1-4 power scope with crappy eyesight was a bit "fun" shall we say once the conditions deteriorated.

 

[IvW]

I fail to see the point of using 350 gr Hornady bullets @ 2750fps in a 450 Rigby unless you are just plinking or fooling around.

500 gr-550 gr premium grade bullets are the way to go.

 

[larry4831]

I read an article of Jack O' Connor where he used 460 Weatherbye cases to reload a 416 Rigby by turning the belt of the case on a lay.

I remember reading that too, man that’s been a long time ago.

 

[8x68]

I fail to see the point of using 350 gr Hornady bullets @ 2750fps in a 450 Rigby unless you are just plinking or fooling around.

500 gr-550 gr premium grade bullets are the way to go.

There's always a point to something. I was just messing around. 550gr bullets are a tad heavy in my opinion. 500gr is enough bullet for the 450 Rigby. Another 50 grains doesn't really gain you anything except more recoil.

 

[8x68]

I forgot to add that in this part of the world we have something called moose. It would make a good moose load from 150-300yds. Given that the round would be going around 2100fps at 200yds and 1700fps at 300 yds (which rival 45/70 muzzle velocities for the same bullet) it would make a good long range moose round IMO. Bullet would have enough "giddyup" & ME to penetrate the vitals of moose. Within 150yds might be going a bit quick to expand properly, although it flattened a whitetail deer I shot with it at 20yds (long story).

 

[IvW]

There's always a point to something. I was just messing around. 550gr bullets are a tad heavy in my opinion. 500gr is enough bullet for the 450 Rigby. Another 50 grains doesn't really gain you anything except more recoil.

Gain-sectional density, momentum, straight line penetration which are important for DG hunting....I guess for moose it makes no difference, in which case I would use a 300 with 200gr bullets. But that is just me.

 

[Von S.]

Ray,

I like just about all rifles and calibers so to me it's a matter of choice of the guy doing the shooting.

If i am given the choice I would go with the bigger, faster most deadly thing I can get my hands on as I look for ways to shoot everything a extended ranges. That of course means that you must pick your shoots and be positive that the shot will end with one shot and the animal planting it's nose in the ground like an asteroid just hit it.

 

[Luederitz]

I am thinking about a custom rifle in either 460 Weatherby or 450 Rigby.

While CIP says e.g. for 458 Win a twist of 14" is standard, the Weatherby uses a 16" twist.
Any recommendations to chose which twist if you have the choice?

I would tend to chose a 14" twist for the Rigby/Weatherby...

 

[Hunter-Habib]

.450 Rigby any day all day everyday.

The beastly .460 Weatherby Magnum is the only caliber which I have absolutely nothing good to say about. An American gent whom I hunted with in Kenya in 1974, had brought one of the infernal things (a Weatherby Mark V) to Mr. Cheffing’s (our white hunter’s) camp to hunt Cape buffalo. Mr. Cheffings very accurately predicted before the safari that the client would be needing the white hunter to finish off the buffalo if he used that .460. Being new to the game at that time (this being my life’s first African safari), I was highly impressed by the ornate looks of that big rifle. If only that big rifle were as good as it were big …

1:14 is a good twist rate for .458 cal heavy (480-550Gr) bullets. You shouldn’t be encountering any problems.