460 S&W hunting bullet

[.45 colt hunter]

I am setting up a S&W 460 XVR for hunting in the Eastern Cape and now I cannot find any suitable bullets.
What I am looking for is i.e Barnes Buster 300/ 325 gr., Barnes XPB 275 gr., Hornady XTP Mag 300 gr., Swift A-frame 300 gr. or even some hard cast lead bullets in .452 diameter and wt. between 300 and 360 gr. I am not looking for extreme velocity as with the 200 gr. bullets, its more penetration and accuracy that is my goal.
I have visited all online stores I could find in RSA, but all are out of stock or do not have any of the brands mentioned. Can some of you dedicated reloaders help me locate where it would be possible to buy any hunting quality bullets. Can the online stores send bullets only ?

 

[small bore]

See Graf and Sons for some of the bullets in stock that you have listed as well as a Sierra bullet that may suit you.

 

[mauserhunter]

I would avoid the xtp mags, others are gtg.

 

[.45 colt hunter]

Why not the Hornady XTP mag. Are they too soft ?
Is Graf and sons not a US supplier ? The problem is getting the right bullets in South Africa.
US companies will not export any components, for the time being, as i understand it.
Reloading components are very difficult to find in RSA. I managed to get my hands on some Hodgdon H110 and 200 460 S&W cases and 400 Large rifle primers. I just need the bullets.
I am actually living in Denmark and i am going to hunt with my friends in The Eastern Cape with the 460 XVR that i have funded . They do not reload, so it is up to me to sample the components and reloading tools in South Afrika via my friends. I got nearly everything except some good bullet and a Weigand scope base, to mount a leupold 2 or 4 X.
Jack weigand will not export his bases anymore and do not have any distributors anywhere outside the US, so thats another problem, i have to solve. I guess that is part of the fun of being able to use that big revolver.

 

[matt85]

Why not cast your own? With pistol bullets it will be easy and inexpensive. You can buy pre-mixed alloys to insure proper hardness for hunting.

 

[Hunter4752001]

I would not rule out the Sierra #8830 Sports Master 300g JSP (make sure you get the 4515 version and not the 458 version ) . Its a tough bullet that performs like a solid and needs the extra velocity that 460 S&W brings to the table.

I've used the Hornady 300 gr XTP Mag in a 454 Casull on kudu, impala and bushbuck. All shots were complete pass through.

Depending on what you're hunting, it may also be worth considering the Cutting Edge Bullets handgun offerings.

I wouldn't use hard cast lead above 1400 fps due to deforming badly on hitting bone or heavy muscle. Great at moderate velocities, but why waste 460 S&W capability.

If you can't get projectiles locally, try emailing Graf & Sons in the US. The change from ITAR to Commerce regulations has opened up what can be exported. Better to ask the question than miss out due to outdated info.

 

[.45 colt hunter]

Thank you very much for the information on the bullets, i appreciate it. I will give Graf and Sons a call and hear if they will export bullets to South Africa or Europe. I doubt it, as i have recently tried to get some shotshell wads from Ballistic Products and they informed me that NO COMPONENTS are allowed to be exported outside the US ! Same goes for the Weigand mount i mentioned, they will not ship outside the US.

 

[.45 colt hunter]

Matt.
I do cast my own bullets for the .454 Casull and i have had no disappointments with them on game, the largest being a Giraffe with a 370 gr LBT LFN. I have an alloy that is around 25 BHN and which is tough but not brittle. I will not expand , but may loose a bit of weight when hitting large bones, which is HUNTER 4752001 `s concern. I tend to agree with him that beyond 1400 fps. they might shatter. The 460 S&W i capable of much more velocity than that, but i could keep the vel. down a bit. When travelling with my own Freedom Arms Casull, i am allowed to bring ammo for it, but i has gotten too painfully difficult and too expensive to travel with firearms from Denmark to RSA. Travelling with components without the firearm and all the documents and licenses, is probably not an option.
3 hunting trips with my Casull in airline fees is 2000 US dollars. Thats why i have invested in a revolver that stays in South Africa and it set me back exactly 2000 US, so now i am looking for components in that country which so far has been unsuccessful.
The probably illegal solution, would be to bring my own cast gaschecked bullets in my luggage . A legal and more permanent solution would be to set up for casting bullets at the hunting lodge, Which means i have to bring all the equipment needed for casting sizing/lubing and my alloy with me from home. That would make my suitcase weigh a ton. I really hope that i can find bullets locally, so i don`t have to risk getting harassed by customs or the police in RSA.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Perhaps one of the South African monolithic bullet manufacturers can turn up a batch of what you need. Peregrine and GS custom come to mind. Claw makes 300g bonded 45 handgun bullets but in 454; I'd imagine you could bring a sizing die if they won't run a batch for you at 451.

 

[.45 colt hunter]

Thanks Bert.
I will take a look at Peregrine, GS and Claw, the one i never heard about . Yeas i could bring a sizing die and some imperial sizing wax .
Had no idea that Peregrine and GS made handgun bullets. In the past i have had a few of them i rifle calibers. Very special bullets.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Thanks Bert.
I will take a look at Peregrine, GS and Claw, the one i never heard about . Yeas i could bring a sizing die and some imperial sizing wax .
Had no idea that Peregrine and GS made handgun bullets. In the past i have had a few of them i rifle calibers. Very special bullets.

I'm not sure if they make handgun bullets or not, just thinking if they are turning bullets one by one in a lathe, there isn't much barrier to entry on a new bullet. At least for a flat point non-expanding type- making a hollow point would require some extra equipment and testing.

 

[.45 colt hunter]

I just looked up GS custom and they are all produced in the US, I cannot find anything on them in south Africa. The US based GS bullet manufacturer will only ship within the US.
Peregrine has a 260 gr "hogmaster" expanding hollowpoint monolithic bullet, that could be interesting.
Claw bullets have a .454 , 300 gr. bonded bullet as you mentioned and maybe it could be sized down to .4515 I will try to contact them and ask why the do them in .454 and could they maybe do them in .451
Thank you Bert you certainly gave me some options to research.

 

[Uxas]

My experience with the factory 200 gr FTXs outta the .460 is that they are incredibly accurate, but a tad fragile for deer. I would suggest something heavier with more emphasis on penetration than that offered by the 200 gr FTX. IMHO, the factory 200 gr FTX would make a great varmint round.

 

[.45 colt hunter]

Are you referring to the Hornady FTX Mag or the ordinary FTX ?
I too want a heavier bullet 300 - 370 gr. range, I do cast my own, but would prefer to get a flat nose solid or very strong bonded bullet in the same weight range. I am investigating Peregrine, Gs custom and Claw bullet from South Africa

 

[Mentone Mike]

I have not handgun hunted in Africa but I have water buffalo in Argentina, Vancouver Bulls in Hawaii, elk in New Mexico, bison in Montana and moose in Alaska.
What I have learned is leave the cast bullets for practice. After punching holes in the elk and bison, I switched to the Swift A-F in my 45 Colt, 454 and 460 S&W. All different levels of power, but as soon as I did, all my game in Argentina went down with one shot. Mind you I was a die hard cast guy using wide flat nose cast bullets prior to my bison hunt.
Jacketed bullets just work faster. It's hard to beat anything loaded with the Swift A-frame bullets for
a great combination of expansion and penetration.
Example...the water buffalo was maybe 60 yards, quartering shot. We found the bullet in the opposite hind quarter. The ammunition was Grizzly Cartridge's 460 S&W 325 AF. Actual FPS out of my pistol was 1930 fps. See pics.

Another awesome bullet for light skinned game is the Speer Gold Dot for the 454. But unfortunately this item has been out of stock for quite sometime.
One more comment on the XTP mag bullets. They can fail to expand as I have experienced on whitetails. They punch a nice little hole. Now I use the regular XTP for our local deer.

 

[.45 colt hunter]

Hi Mike.
Thanks for your comments on bullet choise. I am sure you are right about the Swift A-Frame, but i just cant buy buy them here in Denmark or South Africa. What i have managed to get is a supply of Barnes 325 gr. Buster and Barnes 250 gr. XPB. I also got some Peregrine 250 gr. "Hogmaster" bullets, a South African made copper, expanding bullet.
I am also going to reload some of my cast LBT bullets, they range from 325 gr. to 395 gr with a Brinell hardness of 25, they are not brittle at all and will not expand much. From what i have learned they performed really well. Can you please explain where you found that the cast bullets failed you. What weight did you use and what hardness were they. Did they fragment or loose too much weight ?
Kind regards
Karsten

 

[Mentone Mike]

Karsten,

I have several LBT molds and cast them from 285 LFN, 300 WFN, 320LFN, 325 WFN and a 360 LFN.
So you can see I came from the cast bullet camp. I still shoot them but not for hunting any longer.
A couple things on these bullets. Like I said I was fully in the cast bullet camp and justified there use without much thought to good hollowpoints. Shot many deer and hogs with them and none went down with much authority. Many took several shots. Penetration was never an issue except for a bison skull shot.
On that bison hunt, I shot a bull 3 times in the chest at less than 50 yards. The 360 LFN punched right through. After 5 minutes bleeding threw the nose I decided to take a behind the ear shot. After my friend John Linebaugh said that is the shot to take. He was the expert. All the bull did was shake his head.
At that shot the small group started to move down to the breaks and I had my stepson down him with his 300 Win mag. If the bull got down hill we would have never retrieved him. He was dying, just not fast enough.
The story does not end there. I saw a second buffalo bleeding through the nose, so I ran up the hill to find a cow buff dead. Obviously one I could not see. Couldn't down the bull with 4 shots, but could the cow with one bullet through the bull!
See the attached pics. The 2 bullets show exactly what happens to cast bullets. The edges of the meplat
get ripped off, turning the bullet into a round nose. The second photo was the bullet found at the base of the ear on the bull. Never penetrated. Velocity on these rounds were 1480 fps, hardness 22.
For all practical purposes this bullet should have done the job.
Right after that I switched to jacketed bullets and went to Argentina. I shot the water buffalo with a 460 Smith, but the rhea, white lipped peccary, cabybara, and a 350 lb boar with the revolver only using jacketed bullets. One shot and out.
Keep in mind also, the faster you drive a cast bullet, higher chance of turning it into a round nose.
I have not used the Barnes Buster bullets yet. I have them but preferred the Punch Bullets when I can get them. The meplat on the Barnes are a little rounded, but the punch bullets and the 300 gr Lehigh's have a nice sharp edges. The theory from Veral Smith is the flat meplat cause the tissue damage.
But as the pictures show( I have other samples) lead just isn't to the task.
Too bad you cannot get the Swift A-frames. Best of both worlds.
I might and also my go to cartridge is the 454. Mostly loaded with a 300 gr bullet with a velocity of
1550 fps. The loads for the moose were 1650 fps. Took a couple shots and sometime for him to expire also though.
I would like to more about Danish gun laws. Been thinking of booking a Musk ox hunt in Greenland.
I would like to try using my 454 T/C Encore in 16.25" barrel carbine format. Not sure if that is legal there or not.
Best Regards,
Mike

 

[Hunter4752001]

@Mentone Mike Those rounded edges on the meplat may well be an advantagee. In one of his discussions on the Cutting Edge Bullets @michael458 describes how their testing during the design phase showed that having a rounded edge on the meplat actually improved the performance. Note: Its still a flat melat but one with a rounded edge.

I haven't had the chance to test either CEB Handgun Raptors or the CEB Handgun Solid, but they are on my list to try.

 

[Mentone Mike]

Interesting. Read good reviews on the Cutting Edge bullets. I see they also have that rounded edge
like the Barnes busters..
Haven't talked to Mike at Grizzly Cartridge in awhile but know he was having trouble getting the punch
bullets made. What made these nice is the lead insert. When I was shooting the 325 AF in the 460,
point of impact was the same with the 325 punch bullet. Not sure about the solid copper ones yet.
Let me know if you do get a chance to test those.

 

[michael458]

The 2 bullets show exactly what happens to cast bullets. The edges of the meplat
get ripped off, turning the bullet into a round nose.

In one of his discussions on the Cutting Edge Bullets @michael458 describes how their testing during the design phase showed that having a rounded edge on the meplat actually improved the performance. Note: Its still a flat melat but one with a rounded edge.

Early in the test work and search for the perfect solid mainly in big bore rifle cartridges, we noticed that a sharp edge solid (brass or copper) would loose stability in the last 5%-10% of total penetration. By putting a radius on the edge of the meplat, breaking that sharpness, the bullet was stable to 100% of the depth of penetration.

The reason for this is that at rifle velocity a flat nose solid, with a 65% Meplat of caliber + creates a bubble in aqueous mediums, or animal tissue. This is what allows this design to penetrate deep and straight. Once the bullet starts to slow down, that sharp edge disrupts the bubble it is riding in causing instability.

This is not a factor with cast lead bullets, as the nose normally is disrupted and distorted during the first part of penetration. I would venture to state that a more radius edge might help with some of the distortion in the beginning. Sharp edge cast bullets tend to shear, as mentioned above and in no way can a cast bullet of any kind or hardness be compared to a true Solid Copper or Brass bullet that does not distort under most circumstances. Perhaps heavy ball joints might disrupt the copper more than the brass.

Radius edge is #5 of the 8 Factors of Solid Penetration, and the last factor that deals strickly with bullet design.

I personally do not believe that in handguns at normal handgun velocity that the radius edge would make a realistic difference, if so, it would be small and really only measurable in the test range. Again, this is related only to solid copper or brass bullets that do not distort.

As for availability in South Africa, you have a problem, and choices would be very limited. However, at one time, I believe Peregrine was making some handgun bullets, a friend of mine was using them in 44 mags with fantastic success in South Africa. I am not sure what sort they are making, but you would be very well served looking into Peregrine, if they have their copper hollow point expanding, it is very good bullet, and if they have a solid copper of any sort, it will most likely be about the best you can get your hands on. I would urge you to look at Peregrine and see what you can come up with.

Now, another possible source of proper bullets might be Dios Y El Rey Hunting Outfitters & Equipment in J'burg, It has been some years since I spoke with the owner Dawid, and visited the shop. At the time he was importing Cutting Edge Bullets, and had many other bullets in the shop for sale. I just tried the website, but it is "Closed For Maintenance" it states.

www.diosyelrey.co.za

I have this as email, but not sure if it is still viable or not;

dawid@diosyelrey.co.za

And this is the phone number I pulled from the website....... 073 081 9635

And the address that I found.......
15 Bantjes Street
1501 Germiston-Rynfield
Gauteng-South Africa

If you can touch base somehow with Dawid, I am sure he can put you on the right path. I sincerely hope he is available and still in business, I regret having lost contact with Dawid too many years ago, and next time we are in Pretoria I will make it a point to visit with him if possible.