7mm mag bullets breaking up

[Charles de Ribeau]

I have a puzzle. To start, last year, I hunted a lioness in SA. I used a 7 mm mag provided by the outfitter. (Let's not down the rat hole of whether or not that was a legal caliber - I don't know the answer.) It took several shots to kill her. I know that I hit her every time - I could see the body move from the impact. I spoke with an acquaintance (very experienced African hunter) who had exactly the same experience on the same ranch.

Fast forward several months. I got an email from SCI promoting Norma bullets. It included an article by a former PH - Dr. Don Heath - "The History of African PH". In the article he told about "...a lioness from the first pride of lions I ever had to deal with came on after a perfect chest shot, knocking me down and breaking 6 ribs. The bullet had blown apart on her tensed chest muscles ."

Two days ago, I shot a small shiras moose with my own 7 mm WSM. I was using Federal Premium ammo with 160 grain trophy bonded bullets. It was a young and relatively small cow at 30 yards. To give a perspective of size, the 4 quarters and loins weighed only 134 lbs. I can't tell you the order in which the bullets hit, but here is what happened. One hit on the ball of the shoulder and disintegrated; one just behind the shoulder and broke apart (a piece may have nicked a lobe of a lung) and a third hit the chest (barely) at an angle the took it into the liver which it obliterated and the it exited the body.

So, 2 out of 3 disintegrated on impact. So, what' the problem? I love this gun. It is absolutely deadly accurate.I'd hate to have to put it aside.

I would really appreciate any and all advice.

 

[Mekaniks]

My guess... To much speed for the bullets when impacting something hard. Either go to a mono-metal type bullet i.e. Barnes TSX or similar. Or slow down the bullets your already using. whatever it's worth....Just a hunch and of course I have no idea how fast your really shooting them, but the 7 mag and the 7 SM are both known for speed.

The pic is a Barnes 185g TSX out of a 338wm that hit a black bear broadside in the left shoulder at 30yrds and then off the inside of the right shoulder, lost a petal and turned and went full length of the bear. We recovered it under the hide of the right rear quarter. Inside of the bear was jello...2950-3000 fps

And Welcome to AH

 

[BRICKBURN]

Caliber is not the issue.
I have had a .270 130 grain core-lokt bullet do eight inches of penetration into the neck muscle of Moose at 50 yards (total fragmentation and only the rear cup left. (second shot) Same bullet then at 386 yards have an almost pass through of the entire carcass and found the bullet intact under the skin on the other side. Two shoulders, two lungs and knocked the Bull Moose off his feet, literally. 90% weight retention.

So, I would say that speed and close proximity are not friends to soft bullets and penetration.

Big lesson that day.

By the way, I shoot Barnes TTSX now in everything: .270, .300WM, .375 H&H.
Make sure you know what is on the other side of your target with these guys. The bullet will not be stopping on the near side!

By the way, Welcome to AH.

 

[ack]

You might also look at Swift A-Frame and Scirocco.We recently used the Scirocco in Africa with perfect results..Very accurate in both our guns..30/06 180 grain..Recovered the ones that didn't go through and they looked like the ads.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

I think it is matter of selection of bullet.
Good luck.
Witold

 

[drew416]

Let me echo what the experienced men above have stated-

A magnum velocity projectiles need to hold together at it's intended "IMPACT VELOCITY"

Though I have never taken my 7mm Rem Mag to Africa, loaded with 175gn Woodeigh PP, they exit on broadside shoulder shots on large wild Boar, at all ranges beyond 100m.

Same on Red Deer.

On Brumbies however they don't exit but penetrate in far enough to mince heart/lungs/liver. Yet the horse runs "dead" for a while, up to several hundred meters.

Same animal hit in the same spot with a 9.3X62 286gn drops like a heavy sack on the spot.With a Woodleigh they exit at close range, up to 100m leaving a small to large exit wound.

Some may think I'm going off topic but a heavy muscled animal like a Lion/ Lioness is the top of the food chain and is no softie. Your PH's choice of calibre/ projectile type could be limited to whatever he could get locally?

Hard game animal's need hard bullets, and heavy for caliber ones at that if spectacular results are the intended outcome.

Don't let these experience put you off the 7mm Rem Mag, it has alot to offer. It just needs the right projectile/placement as do all other cartridges.

 

[enysse]

I like my 7 mm Rem Mag, but I would never aim for the shoulder unless I was shooting TTSX or TSX. Even then I just think quartering too shoots should be avoided. If you are using lead bullets or Swift A Frame, just aim for the lungs and I really don't think you will have any problems, they have never failed me.
I sometimes thing people expect bullets to run a straight line right through the animal and that just doesn't happen most times with the smaller calibers.

 

[lcq]

The Trophy Bonded Tip is a very stout bonded bullet. But at magnum velocities and short range it will come apart quickly. As others have said the monometals will hold together. Barnes, Hornady, Nosler and GS custom may shed petals but the shank will penetrate

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Everyone beat me to it: put a Barnes X of some variety in it and live happily ever after.

 

[Charles de Ribeau]

I like my 7 mm Rem Mag, but I would never aim for the shoulder unless ....

You're giving me too much credit. The bull that she was with wanted to get out of there. There was only a small shooting window and when she showed herself I had to take my shot. Each of the shots (offhand without sticks) had to be hurried. I simply shot for the chest. On the first shot she was moving.

 

[Charles de Ribeau]

The Trophy Bonded Tip is a very stout bonded bullet. But at magnum velocities and short range it will come apart quickly. As others have said the monometals will hold together. Barnes, Hornady, Nosler and GS custom may shed petals but the shank will penetrate

I expected a much longer shot. Something more like 100 yards - 300 yards.

I'm going to have to learn more about the monometals. How do they perform at longer ranges? Are there situations where a bonded bullet is going to be the better choice?

 

[Velo Dog]

Hi Charles,

The 7mm Remington magnum caliber is one of only a couple relatively "modern" cartridges (1962?) that I am fond of.
I feel it is an excellent long range hunting cartridge for things like mule deer, elk, sheep, caribou and African game such as springbok, blesbok, kudu, hartebeest, ibex and similar animals at long range.
But, not exactly what comes to mind for lion hunting (lioness hunting either).
Cartridges like the 9.3x62 Mauser, .375 H&H, .404 Jeffery, .416 Rigby and such, tend to "appear on my screen", so to speak, when any discussion of lions starts up.

That being said, if I found myself preparing to hunt same with a 7mm, I would want a 175 grain round nose soft.
For your described bullet failure, probably along with a couple other reasons, the 7mm is unlawful to use on dangerous game in many places but, that is probably best discussed in some other thread.
As for the TSX and similar design bullets, my life's experiences have taught me to not trust any sort of hollow point designs, especially sharply pointed ones made of hard metal and with a proportionately tiny hole to boot.

As HP bullets go, they seem to "mushroom" best at high velocity so if you absolutely must use them, the 7mm magnum is probably a good cartridge to load them in.
(Round nosed bullets are already half way mushroomed as they sit in their boxes, waiting for you to buy them).

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[Charles de Ribeau]

My first thought was that perhaps I should have used a 338 Win Mag or even an '06. However, it sounds like you all are saying that at 40 yards, a partioned bullet is the problem and not the caliber. Am I getting this right?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

My first thought was that perhaps I should have used a 338 Win Mag or even an '06. However, it sounds like you all are saying that at 40 yards, a partioned bullet is the problem and not the caliber. Am I getting this right?

If you're using a 7mm WSM and the shots are at that short a distance then I'd want heavier and slower bullets. That animal was hit at near muzzle velocity speeds. The bullet that hit the ball of the shoulder, well that happens on heavy bone. The bullet that hit broadside on the shoulder and broke up, that one concerns me more, that should not have happened.

I have sitting in front of me a once 160gr Nosler Partition that now weighs 80gr. Front section of the Partition is gone leaving the rear with some of the lead from the front mushroomed out just a bit larger than 7mm. This bullet was retrieved from under the skin on the offside of the fully grown large Shiras bull moose I killed in Idaho in 2001.

If I were hunting a Shiras again with my 7mm magnum, it would be at least 160gr and I'd be using either Swift A-Frames or my favorite North Forks.

 

[gillettehunter]

Used my 7mm earlier this yr in Africa. 160 grain Nosler AB's. Running about 3040 fps. Kudu at 75 yards dropped so fast the PH asked " where did he go". Gemsbuck dropped in his tracks. Same with a Reedbuck. Sable dead on his feet. Shot a 2 nd time just to make sure and he dropped at that shot. Black Wilderbeast I missed the shoulder (400 yds). Ran 200 yds double lunged. I have also had great luck with the TTSX. Good quality bullets can save the day! Bruce

 

[tgreene]

Reload for the trifecta of non magnum 7 mm rounds, 280 Ackley Improved (Jarrett Rifle), 280 Remington (Winchester Featherweight Supergrade Model 70) , and a recently acquired custom 275 Rigby (Simillion/ Bellieb), All load and shoot well with Barnes TSX. Guns prefer 140 grain bullets. Even with the lighter weight bullets on African game, this bullet has been nothing short of devastating on to game as evident on my most recent trips with Marius Goosen 2013, and with Christian Weth in Uganda last year. Seems to be a common theme with the above threads. Best of luck, T. Greene

 

[Velo Dog]

My first thought was that perhaps I should have used a 338 Win Mag or even an '06. However, it sounds like you all are saying that at 40 yards, a partioned bullet is the problem and not the caliber. Am I getting this right?

Hi again Charles,

A "partitioned bullet" is not exactly the problem IMO, except from the viewpoint that this type of projectile has a soft lead core (two of them, nose and tail).
And lead is easily deformed, even when it is cold.
However, when a small bit if it is only covered by thin guilding metal (copper and other metals mixed to make "jacket" material with properties something like tin but cheaper) is screeched through the riflings of a 7mm Magnum for example, the lead becomes very hot and therefore even more soft than when it was before firing.
The "partition" in your bullet was not the issue but in fact the soft lead that failed.

When I was in my 20's, I had a .220 Swift and noticed that sometimes my fastest hand loads with 45 grain Sierra bullets would leave a bluish gray smoke trail as they flew down range and that when they did this, nothing would make it to the target.
Turns out the lead core was melting to the point of actually becoming a liquid, as it spun down the bore at over 4,000 fps, from the high heat of powder burning and intense friction surrounding such a tiny bullet.
I wised up and settled on 55 gr bullets at much lower velocity and it never happened again.

I doubt the cores in your lioness bullets were actually liquefying like my tiny varmint bullets were.
However, it is likely that whatever weight/brand of 7mm bullets you fired into the cat were too fragile for that much velocity, at least in part to the lead cores softening even more than cold lead already is.
Whatever they were, perhaps they would have been fine for long shots at some not so tough species but at close range, the shoulder muscles and bones of the lioness obviously caused these bullets to shatter.

The answer, as Mekaniks and others have already mentioned here, is to use heavy/tougher bullets in this rather high velocity cartridge (IMO a 7mm is getting close to "smallish" for quite a few African animals).
I already mentioned that I do not trust hollow point bullets but, if I was to have a change of heart for some reason, the 7mm magnum seems tailor made for such hard metal / hollow pointed bullets as the TTX and similar ones.

All that being said, I believe that the Swift A-Frame is the very best soft point bullet for my needs.
And so, if I ever decide for some unknown reason to use a 7mm of any description on rather large animals, such as zebra, eland, waterbuck, etc., I would use the 175 grain A-Frame.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[colorado]

A-Frames, North Forks bondeds, Partitions (you'll lose front half but will aways expand and penetrate), no experience outside of my 500 Jeff with TSX but hear 90 plus percent of good things about them in my opinion stay away from Hornady expanding lead jacketed bullets. You have a great caliber and there are great bullets out there for it.

 

[lcq]

A-Frames, North Forks bondeds, Partitions (you'll lose front half but will aways expand and penetrate), no experience outside of my 500 Jeff with TSX but hear 90 plus percent of good things about them in my opinion stay away from Hornady expanding lead jacketed bullets. You have a great caliber and there are great bullets out there for it.

Depends which Hornady. The interbond is a tough bullet even at magnum velocities. The Interlock great at 3006 velocity and below. The SST ultra long range on small animals. An SST at short range at high velocity might as well be a Vmax