A5 16 ga project

[amschind]

I came across a 1929 FN A5 16 ga. The wood looked like it was from 1929 and someone had cut the barrel down to 25" with the last 1" devoted to male threads for one of those ghastly choke-compensators that were so popular in the 1950s. The sale price had been adjusted accordingly, but the real selling points were the absolutely gorgeous bluing and the professional 2 3/4" conversion. I also found a "deal" on a case of 2 3/4" high brass bismuth. Macon sells beautiful but "some assembly required" wood, and I got them to send me a set of tigerstripe maple. I'm getting the muzzle thread cut off to leave a 24" cylinder bore, and the wood finished with the same finish as the old maple Kentucky rifles.

All of this is an excuse to show off pictures of a pretty gun before the small population of folks would be interested, but to make it practical, I will add a question: is 16 ga a foolish caliber to take to Africa? I ask because it would be gun #3, and my fear is that I may only get one chance to go. To that end, I would like to make sure that I get any wing shooting that I want done, but finding out that 16 ga is unobtanium in RSA would be pretty disappointing. I have Remington 11 (the pre-A5 A5) in 20 ga and a Cynergy in 12 ga, but the 16 has an allure that seems to match such a special trip.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Just take 16 ga factory lead with you. Lots of it available. That gun will handle factory lead, especially with no choke in the barrel. I don't believe you'd need to shoot nontoxic shot in RSA. Sixteen gauge is still very popular among Europeans so it would not surprise me if factory ammo is available in RSA.

 

[Firebird]

Double check with your ph and make sure they can get 16 gauge shells in their neck of the veldt!
In the US for non toxic give “heavy bismuth” made by hevi shot a try-“made for classic guns.” Otherwise enjoy the benefits of lead. My uncle killed a lot of quail with an old humpback 12 when I was a kid.
I do love the 16 gauge and own several but your project is a gem!

 

[steve white]

If it's anything like the "sweet 16" it will NOT tolerate heavy loads! The springs are calibrated for load and slamming back too hard with heavy loads will crack the fore end...don't ask how I found out.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

If it's anything like the "sweet 16" it will NOT tolerate heavy loads! The springs are calibrated for load and slamming back too hard with heavy loads will crack the fore end...don't ask how I found out.

This is a chronic issue with all A5s, not just 16 gauge. Make sure the friction brake and rings are set up properly for heavy loads. Improper setup will definitely shorten the life of wooden fore end. The friction brake softens the recoil of barrel AND regulates how rapidly it returns and barrel ring collides with wood at top of magazine tube. For a shotgun that old I would shop for a new barrel spring, friction brake, and ring.

John Browning left two design flaws in the Auto 5. The tang screw through the wrist seriously weakened the butt stock. Long recoil cycling pulled and pushed on the screw until the hole in the stock stretched. Then the stock is loose and wood cracks. The second design defect is the barrel ring colliding with wooden fore end every time the gun is cycled. Eventually the fore end is pounded to pieces. Remington fixed both issues with the 11-48 that superceded their A5 clone Model 11. A metal tube lines the end of fore end so the barrel ring essentially pounds on the magazine cap. Tang screw was eliminated with butt stock held on instead with a nut behind recoil pad attached to the end of action spring housing.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The OP should give serious thought to changing his A5 to maple wood. Maple is brittle. I doubt a maple fore end would hold up well. Also, the wrist being compromised by tang screw drilled through it (plus action spring tube hole) will be vulnerable to cracking if the gun/stock is dropped. I've seen this happen twice with much stouter maple stocked rifles.

 

[wesheltonj]

If you need a “rebuild kit,” Art’s guns sells those. They also Restore and repair any Browning firearm.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I hunt birds, waterfowl and uplands, exclusively with a 1961 A5 Magnum Twelve. I gave up on wood several years ago after going through two sets. It now wears plastic. It's also my go to gun at the range.

 

[amschind]

Double check with your ph and make sure they can get 16 gauge shells in their neck of the veldt!
In the US for non toxic give “heavy bismuth” made by hevi shot a try-“made for classic guns.” Otherwise enjoy the benefits of lead. My uncle killed a lot of quail with an old humpback 12 when I was a kid.
I do love the 16 gauge and own several but your project is a gem!

Yes, and to be clear I have a bunch of lead shells, but I also found a case of #6 Hevishot on sale at Midway for 50% off (which meant that it was only double the normal cost per shell!). I am relieved to hear that I have decent odds of using this thing as intended; it was an impulse buy, so I was increasingly afraid that I would regret it.

 

[amschind]

If it's anything like the "sweet 16" it will NOT tolerate heavy loads! The springs are calibrated for load and slamming back too hard with heavy loads will crack the fore end...don't ask how I found out.

I installed a new spring and bushings first thing after I got it home. There are several different bushing configurations, so I'll try a few out and make sure but right now it is configured for magnum loads. This gun was made in 1929, so it isn't a Sweet Sixteen, which I think was invented post-war.

As for the foreend cracking, I actually have a solution for that. The guy that runs Macon stocks (who is just an awesome guy.....he spent an hour teaching me stuff more than once and we only know each other over the phone) told me in no uncertain terms to bed the REAR of the FOREEND in an Auto 5. His point is that the bolt+barrel slamming forward under the force of that huge spring is basically harsher than recoil, and that your front hand holding the foreend is what stops the gun from launching itself like a javelin. Your front hand transmits force through the foreend to the receiver to stop the forward momentum of the bolt+barrel, such that the rear foreend-receiver junction functions like a recoil surface. That junction should therefore be epoxy bedded just like any other recoil interface in the stock, and I was very specific that I wanted it done when I put the order in for the work on this gun.

This is a chronic issue with all A5s, not just 16 gauge. Make sure the friction brake and rings are set up properly for heavy loads. Improper setup will definitely shorten the life of wooden fore end. The friction brake softens the recoil of barrel AND regulates how rapidly it returns and barrel ring collides with wood at top of magazine tube. For a shotgun that old I would shop for a new barrel spring, friction brake, and ring.

John Browning left two design flaws in the Auto 5. The tang screw through the wrist seriously weakened the butt stock. Long recoil cycling pulled and pushed on the screw until the hole in the stock stretched. Then the stock is loose and wood cracks. The second design defect is the barrel ring colliding with wooden fore end every time the gun is cycled. Eventually the fore end is pounded to pieces. Remington fixed both issues with the 11-48 that superceded their A5 clone Model 11. A metal tube lines the end of fore end so the barrel ring essentially pounds on the magazine cap. Tang screw was eliminated with butt stock held on instead with a nut behind recoil pad attached to the end of action spring housing.

I generally glass bed everything, so do you suppose that bedding the recoil surfaces of the buttstock would prevent that loosening?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I installed a new spring and bushings first thing after I got it home. There are several different bushing configurations, so I'll try a few out and make sure but right now it is configured for magnum loads. This gun was made in 1929, so it isn't a Sweet Sixteen, which I think was invented post-war.

As for the foreend cracking, I actually have a solution for that. The guy that runs Macon stocks (who is just an awesome guy.....he spent an hour teaching me stuff more than once and we only know each other over the phone) told me in no uncertain terms to bed the REAR of the FOREEND in an Auto 5. His point is that the bolt+barrel slamming forward under the force of that huge spring is basically harsher than recoil, and that your front hand holding the foreend is what stops the gun from launching itself like a javelin. Your front hand transmits force through the foreend to the receiver to stop the forward momentum of the bolt+barrel, such that the rear foreend-receiver junction functions like a recoil surface. That junction should therefore be epoxy bedded just like any other recoil interface in the stock, and I was very specific that I wanted it done when I put the order in for the work on this gun.



I generally glass bed everything, so do you suppose that bedding the recoil surfaces of the buttstock would prevent that loosening?The barrel returning after recoil slams the barrel ring into the back of the part of fore end ahead of the channel in wood that allows the barrel ring to slide back and forth. The barrel ring guides the barrel on the magazine tube. The magazine cap is what keeps the barrel from flying off like a javelin. The section of wood that receives the impact of barrel ring transfers the forward thrust energy of the returning barrel to the magazine cap which transfers that energy to the magazine tube which is anchored in the receiver. Thus the A5's "double shuffle." The gun jumps back against the shoulder during recoil and then forward again when the barrel returns. The forward motion of the gun is ultimately transfered to both hands.

One might attempt to glass bed the impact area where the barrel ring impacts the wood on fore end. But be advised that the thickness of the wood between magazine cap and barrel ring impact must be precise. If it varies even slightly more or less, the gun will not fire because the bolt will not close properly. Browning devised a failsafe in the bolt mechanism to prevent firing when bolt is not properly locked. Also, the tolerance between the magazine spring and fore end tube is very tight. Not much room for glass reinforcement. There would be no benefit of glass bedding the back end of fore end where it meets the receiver, even if there was enough wood to stick the glass bedding to. And there really isn't. It's the other end of fore end that takes the beating. Glass bedding material is intended to provide strength to areas of constant contact, not constant impact. I don't think the bedding material would hold up to barrel ring slamming into it repeatedly.

Miroku tried to resolve this issue by adding more wood to their A5 fore ends. That was just a band-aid fix. Then they put a fancy crossbolt through the end section of fore end. I had one of these essentially come apart in my hands shooting clays. The answer was Remington's 11-48 solution. Run a steel reinforcement tube through the forward end of wooden fore end to transfer all barrel ring impact energy directly to magazine cap. Or my solution: change the gun to synthetic.

 

[Jon Glajchen]

I came across a 1929 FN A5 16 ga. The wood looked like it was from 1929 and someone had cut the barrel down to 25" with the last 1" devoted to male threads for one of those ghastly choke-compensators that were so popular in the 1950s. The sale price had been adjusted accordingly, but the real selling points were the absolutely gorgeous bluing and the professional 2 3/4" conversion. I also found a "deal" on a case of 2 3/4" high brass bismuth. Macon sells beautiful but "some assembly required" wood, and I got them to send me a set of tigerstripe maple. I'm getting the muzzle thread cut off to leave a 24" cylinder bore, and the wood finished with the same finish as the old maple Kentucky rifles.

All of this is an excuse to show off pictures of a pretty gun before the small population of folks would be interested, but to make it practical, I will add a question: is 16 ga a foolish caliber to take to Africa? I ask because it would be gun #3, and my fear is that I may only get one chance to go. To that end, I would like to make sure that I get any wing shooting that I want done, but finding out that 16 ga is unobtanium in RSA would be pretty disappointing. I have Remington 11 (the pre-A5 A5) in 20 ga and a Cynergy in 12 ga, but the 16 has an allure that seems to match such a special trip.

Just did a quick check on the internet. While not freely available there are some 28g no 4 and 5’s currently available in RSA.

 

[BeeMaa]

...is 16 ga a foolish caliber to take to Africa? I ask because it would be gun #3, and my fear is that I may only get one chance to go. To that end, I would like to make sure that I get any wing shooting that I want done, but finding out that 16 ga is unobtanium in RSA would be pretty disappointing. I have Remington 11 (the pre-A5 A5) in 20 ga and a Cynergy in 12 ga, but the 16 has an allure that seems to match such a special trip.

Is 16 bore a foolish cartridge to take to Africa? Foolish...I don't believe so, but certainly not the best decision either. Especially in a 1929 A5.

A few things to consider...

Of course 16 bore shells are going to be hard to find, but have a discussion with your PH. The worst they could do is charge you for the case of ammo.

Next is shooting heavy loads in this particular firearm. Make sure the shotgun is sound by having the barrel checked for thickness. All the bedding in the world isn't going to do you much good if the chamber blows apart because it wasn't designed for modern shells.

Have the action tuned to the loads your PH will get. I owned a 1953 Belgian Browning A5 16 bore and sold it because I didn't like the recoil impulse.

You said this would be your third firearm? I'd like to know what case you are using and what it weighs with all three firearms. There is a 50 lb limit for luggage, exceed that number and you are subject to a freight charge. Typically they range from $100 to $300 per flight. So if you take two flights over and two flights back, that could be up to $1200 for the rifle case. BTW - Baggage handlers don't treat heavier bags better, in fact it's much worse.

Lastly...options. Take the A5 and just one rifle to reduce weight but still use the shotgun. Take two rifles and rent a shotgun. Change the shotgun for one of your others and choose option one. Crazy option 4, take one rifle and rent a shotgun...travel light.

Lots of ways to do this. Just know that it's YOUR safari and you should have it your way. Let us know what you decide.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

If the 1929 A5 is stamped 2.75" and has the safety on the side of trigger guard instead of inside the trigger guard (John M's infamous original "widow maker" design), then it should handle modern loads ... EXCEPT steel. And with no choke in the barrel it's probably good for that too. The early Remington Model 11 A5 clones had problems with barrels bulging at the choke even in their day. But I haven't heard of anyone having issues with older Browning barrels. Just stay away from steel, even in the newer FN fixed choke barrels. Miroku A5s had choke tubes and more metal in the barrels. Overall, the Japanese A5s were much better quality than FN and that's saying something.

The A5's action is mega tough. I have inadvertently shot 3" goose loads in my fixed modified Light Twelve (2.75") and nothing happened except failed to eject (obviously hulls are too long to clear the port). Remove the barrel, clear the chamber and ready to go. Take the bolt apart and you will see what I mean. The other drawback to A5 is they are not easy to dismantle completely. If the OP has not done this, he should. I have worked on a number of pre-WWII A5s that would not cycle. They were full of petrified cosmoline grease. Back then guns were shipped via ships over the salty ocean in cosmoline grease to protect them. Most dealers in US simply did not have the expertise to break these guns down completely and clean them.

The A5 action isn't tuned by a gunsmith for heavier loads. The shooter does it. My newer Light Twelve has the instructions glued inside the fore arm. It's about changing the steel compression ring on bottom of friction brake. Flip it over for light loads. Not rocket science. Look for instructions on internet.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I installed a new spring and bushings first thing after I got it home. There are several different bushing configurations, so I'll try a few out and make sure but right now it is configured for magnum loads. This gun was made in 1929, so it isn't a Sweet Sixteen, which I think was invented post-war.

As for the foreend cracking, I actually have a solution for that. The guy that runs Macon stocks (who is just an awesome guy.....he spent an hour teaching me stuff more than once and we only know each other over the phone) told me in no uncertain terms to bed the REAR of the FOREEND in an Auto 5. His point is that the bolt+barrel slamming forward under the force of that huge spring is basically harsher than recoil, and that your front hand holding the foreend is what stops the gun from launching itself like a javelin. Your front hand transmits force through the foreend to the receiver to stop the forward momentum of the bolt+barrel, such that the rear foreend-receiver junction functions like a recoil surface. That junction should therefore be epoxy bedded just like any other recoil interface in the stock, and I was very specific that I wanted it done when I put the order in for the work on this gun.



I generally glass bed everything, so do you suppose that bedding the recoil surfaces of the buttstock would prevent that loosening?

I tried it on a butt stock that was starting to crack. It didn't stop it. You could try but it is tricky making sure all metal surfaces will release after bedding sets up, especially the action spring tube that runs through the middle of the stock length ways. Remove the spring when attempting to bed the stock. That way the stock will not be pushed back from receiver metal while bedding glass is setting up. Be careful. You may wind up with stock stuck on the gun permanently.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I installed a new spring and bushings first thing after I got it home. There are several different bushing configurations, so I'll try a few out and make sure but right now it is configured for magnum loads. This gun was made in 1929, so it isn't a Sweet Sixteen, which I think was invented post-war.

As for the foreend cracking, I actually have a solution for that. The guy that runs Macon stocks (who is just an awesome guy.....he spent an hour teaching me stuff more than once and we only know each other over the phone) told me in no uncertain terms to bed the REAR of the FOREEND in an Auto 5. His point is that the bolt+barrel slamming forward under the force of that huge spring is basically harsher than recoil, and that your front hand holding the foreend is what stops the gun from launching itself like a javelin. Your front hand transmits force through the foreend to the receiver to stop the forward momentum of the bolt+barrel, such that the rear foreend-receiver junction functions like a recoil surface. That junction should therefore be epoxy bedded just like any other recoil interface in the stock, and I was very specific that I wanted it done when I put the order in for the work on this gun.



I generally glass bed everything, so do you suppose that bedding the recoil surfaces of the buttstock would prevent that loosening?

Your guy has apparently been unable to convey where/how the impact energy of the forward slamming barrel is transmitted. The barrel ring bottoms against the wood encasing forward end of magazine tube. This hollow block of wood then transmits that impact energy to magazine cap. Magazine cap transmits the barrel ring impact energy to magazine tube which is connected to receiver. This is what makes the gun jump forward at end of cycling after reward recoil is concluded: the A5 "double shuffle." All your hands are doing is holding the gun. They are not keeping it from flying off like a javelin. The magazine cap does that.

 

[amschind]

Your guy has apparently been unable to convey where/how the impact energy of the forward slamming barrel is transmitted. The barrel ring bottoms against the wood encasing forward end of magazine tube. This hollow block of wood then transmits that impact energy to magazine cap. Magazine cap transmits the barrel ring impact energy to magazine tube which is connected to receiver. This is what makes the gun jump forward at end of cycling after reward recoil is concluded: the A5 "double shuffle." All your hands are doing is holding the gun. They are not keeping it from flying off like a javelin. The magazine cap does that.

Shouldn't it then be possible to make a steel ring to fit aorund the forward end of the magazine tube to transmit the force to the magazine cap and simply relieve the wood where that ring sits? I.e. basically what Remington wound up doing....it doesn't seem like a part with terribly complex dimensions or machining.

Here is a great resource:

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Shouldn't it then be possible to make a steel ring to fit aorund the forward end of the magazine tube to transmit the force to the magazine cap and simply relieve the wood where that ring sits? I.e. basically what Remington wound up doing....it doesn't seem like a part with terribly complex dimensions or machining.

Here is a great resource:

Seems like a good idea. However, you will notice that Browning situated the spring loaded magazine cap keeper pin in the fore end wood fairly close to the magazine tube. If the fore end was drilled out to accept a steel tube to absorb barrel ring impact, I don't think there would be enough room to relocate the keeper in the fore end. Then the magazine cap will unscrew itself during cycling. Suddenly the gun won't fire because the barrel is resetting too far forward and bolt won't lock. I know this because the aftermarket synthetic stock set I put on my A5 magnum did not have a keeper pin assembly. I eventually had to scavange the entire assembly (pin, spring, and cup) from the broken wood fore arm and drill a hole for it in the plastic fore arm.

 

[amschind]

Seems like a good idea. However, you will notice that Browning situated the spring loaded magazine cap keeper pin in the fore end wood fairly close to the magazine tube. If the fore end was drilled out to accept a steel tube to absorb barrel ring impact, I don't think there would be enough room to relocate the keeper in the fore end. Then the magazine cap will unscrew itself during cycling. Suddenly the gun won't fire because the barrel is resetting too far forward and bolt won't lock. I know this because the aftermarket synthetic stock set I put on my A5 magnum did not have a keeper pin assembly. I eventually had to scavange the entire assembly (pin, spring, and cup) from the broken wood fore arm and drill a hole for it in the plastic fore arm.

So the hypothetical steel "force transmission ring" would need to incorporate the magazine cap retention detent pin from the removed portion of the stock. I am pondering if the steel ring should be glassed to the stock OR left to slide freely in relation to the stock. It can't be allowed to spin WRT the mag tube or the detent won't work, but if glassed to the stock then it will transmit some shearing force along the epoxy bond (depending upon how tight everything is fitted).

If you machined a steel tube with the correct length and ID, then you make an ugly, rough, hand filed by the intern outer surface and hog out the foreend the same way. Because the outer surface is neither round nor concentric, it's no problem to weld a small tube to house the mag cap detent onto the outside of the steel ring. Then you slather all the gun's metal bits with release agent and assemble it with epoxy filling the gap between the steel reinforcement ring and stock (no mag cap detent installed at this point, just the tube to house it). You allow the epoxy to harden and then hammer that assembly apart with the steel reinforcement ring orientation now set in epoxy by the mag tube.

I think that would get it without reverse engineering anything, just using the gun as the jig.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

So the hypothetical steel "force transmission ring" would need to incorporate the magazine cap retention detent pin from the removed portion of the stock. I am pondering if the steel ring should be glassed to the stock OR left to slide freely in relation to the stock. It can't be allowed to spin WRT the mag tube or the detent won't work, but if glassed to the stock then it will transmit some shearing force along the epoxy bond (depending upon how tight everything is fitted).

To incorporate the detent pin assembly, the steel tube would need to be fairly thick, adding to the weight of the shotgun ... in the wrong place. I think I would try moving the detent pin assembly away from the magazine tube. Might be able to get it far enough from the steel tube but it would be visible and not concealed by magazine cap. Someone with a machine shop could probably make a wider magazine cap. These are solutions that I'm sure Val Browning could have worked out when he was perfecting the A5 design (changing safety, adding auto load 2-piece follower and magazine cutoff). But I guess it was better to just keep selling replacement fore ends. Keep in mind that back in the day Browning pretty much had the autoloader shotgun market cornered.