Accuracy shooting 458 Win Mag from 458 Lott rifle

[Laniarius]

Just a curiosity and please point me to an existing thread if this has been covered already. I tried searching and didn't see anything.

I understand that 458 win mag can be safely fired from a 458 Lott rifle. I recall seeing in an article that this would be "fairly accurate" or something similar.

Is there meaningful loss of accuracy from 458 win mag shot from a 458 Lott rifle? I.e., meaningful in terms of the close range use of a rifle like this.

 

[fourfive8]

Safe yes. Since the bullet would have lots of throat/freebore, the pressure would likely be somewhat less than in a 458 WM chamber. However accuracy would be another thing. Could be so so or could be just as good as regular Lott ammo. That really depends on the bullet type/design, the seating depth and the rifle's chamber/neck/throat. Not too much different from shooting a 38 special in a 357 chamber or a 22 short in a 22 long rifle chamber.

I would think the accuracy should be plenty acceptable for anything under a 100 yards. Just have to test it and see. I have shot a fairly short Lott, trimmed to 2.60" in a Watts that normally shoots a case of 2.83". Also shot a Lott with a case length of 2.79" in a 458 Express (3") that normally shoot a case length of 2.99". Both shot well with very acceptable accuracy.

The way to view it would be... Likely very safe because of the extra throat/freebore. However since the bullet may have some unsupported travel, it may not enter the lands consistently perfectly aligned. Again it depends a lot on the bullet and the length and dimensions of the neck and throat area of the rifle. The case length difference between the 458 WM and Lott is about .30" and the two examples I've tried have been a difference of .23" and .20".

Also just as with the common examples of the 22 rfs and the 38/357, there may be an accumulation of carbon fouling in the freebore area that at some point could affect accuracy. If done for short term, limited field expediency as in lost ammo or something, I wouldn't expect much problem with the fouling.

 

[Laniarius]

Safe yes. Since the bullet would have lots of throat/freebore, the pressure would likely be somewhat less than in a 458 WM chamber. However accuracy would be another thing. Could be so so or could be just as good as regular Lott ammo. That really depends on the bullet type/design, the seating depth and the rifle's chamber/neck/throat. Not too much different from shooting a 38 special in a 357 chamber or a 22 short in a 22 long rifle chamber.

I would think the accuracy should be plenty acceptable for anything under a 100 yards. Just have to test it and see. I have shot a fairly short Lott, trimmed to 2.60" in a Watts that normally shoots a case of 2.83". Also shot a Lott with a case length of 2.79" in a 458 Express (3") that normally shoot a case length of 2.99". Both shot well with very acceptable accuracy.

The way to view it would be... Likely very safe because of the extra throat/freebore. However since the bullet may have some unsupported travel, it may not enter the lands consistently perfectly aligned. Again it depends a lot on the bullet and the length and dimensions of the neck and throat area of the rifle. The case length difference between the 458 WM and Lott is about .30" and the two examples I've tried have been a difference of .23" and .20".

Also just as with the common examples of the 22 rfs and the 38/357, there may be an accumulation of carbon fouling in the freebore area that at some point could affect accuracy. If done for short term, limited field expediency as in lost ammo or something, I wouldn't expect much problem with the fouling.

Thanks, that helps a lot.

 

[crs]

Shooting 45-70 (.458 2.1) in my 45-90 (458 2.4) shows no loss of velocity or accuracy.

 

[Laniarius]

Shooting 45-70 (.458 2.1) in my 45-90 (458 2.4) shows no loss of velocity or accuracy.

Thanks. I haven't measured it systematically, but I don't see a noticeable difference between 357/38 and 22LR/short, either.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Thanks. I haven't measured it systematically, but I don't see a noticeable difference between 357/38 and 22LR/short, either.

I am curious about the chamber and throat erosion regular use of Old Clumpy might cause in a Lott. The .38 in a .357 is child's play to get rid of and causes no lasting impact due to its more gentle nature. It bears stating that the pressure limits being used as comparison are much lower in the short rounds fired in longer chambers. The .460 SW and the .454 Casull would be a much better comparison due to pressures and powder capacity. Sadly I can't help there as I have only fired a box or two of Casull through my .460 and noted no good reason to use the shorter case and the small primer just flat annoyed me from a reloading standpoint.

 

[fourfive8]

Can't imagine how there would be more throat erosion if shooting in a longer freebore or throat. If anything the pressure would be slightly less. So slightly less pressure would mean slightly less velocity and that would mean slightly less potential for erosion. While in theory the pressure would be less, but I'd guess that decrease would be very small. I would imagine however at some point there would be carbon build up in that freebore section that may start to affect accuracy. At what shot count that would occur-- anybody's guess.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Well there are a lot of folks guessing about it. I guessed now you guessed. I guess it doesn't matter after all, but guess what? I'm not in a hurry to try it for some reason. Maybe if my rifle was a ream out?

 

[Wheels]

I remember a PH's culling belt. It carried both kinds. He didn't care if it was WM or Lott. If the customer left ammo, he would use it.

 

[Laniarius]

I remember a PH's culling belt. It carried both kinds. He didn't care if it was WM or Lott. If the customer left ammo, he would use it.

That's an interesting data point, supporting the conclusion that the difference isn't significant at least for the typical range and expected accuracy of a 458.

 

[One Day...]

Safe yes...
Since the bullet would have lots of throat/freebore, the pressure would likely be somewhat less than in a 458 WM chamber...
I would think the accuracy should be plenty acceptable for anything under a 100 yards...
If done for short term, limited field expediency as in lost ammo or something, I wouldn't expect much problem with the fouling...

+1

That's an interesting data point, supporting the conclusion that the difference isn't significant at least for the typical range and expected accuracy of a 458.

+1

.458 with open iron sights realistic field use: 90% of shots within 50 yards? 75 yards? Unless you use your .458 to punch paper with a 12x scope from a bench rest, I doubt anyone will ever see any field accuracy difference...

.458 carbon fooling and throat erosion: dang few people shoot it enough to know I suppose...

.458 Win modern (underscore: modern) ammo vs. .458 Lott ammo: same difference at the receiving end...

Differences?
- Lott will penetrate deeper with solids. Could be useful on a follow up shot up a buffalo, hippo or elephant arse...
- Lott will shoot flatter if a scope is used to shoot further. One could argue that this is getting outside of the performance envelope of a "stopper"...
- Lott will have 30% additional recoil in the same rifle. That may make a difference with some shooters...

For what it is worth, in my own personal experience, the last point (recoil) is what is most measurable in terms of shooting Win ammo in a Lott chamber. I have no shot enough I suppose to get either carbon fooling or throat erosion, and either Win or Lott ring the 6" plate with iron sights about the same at 75 yds...

 

[expresshunt]

I remember a PH's culling belt. It carried both kinds. He didn't care if it was WM or Lott. If the customer left ammo, he would use it.

MOE (Minute Of Eli) ... and use the longer ones... or MOCB (Minute Of Charging Buffalo) whatever feeds in fastest...

 

[expresshunt]

When I rechambered a 602 Brno 458WM to 458 Lott 25 years ago, there were no factory Lott rifles, no ammo, cases, or load data around. I read about the cartridge in the South African 'Magnum' magazine and I wrote a letter to writer Gregor Woods for data. There were a number of complicated suggestions given to form brass from 375H&H, eg.. a small scoop of pistol powder and a wad of pumkin didnt work with our Australian pumpkins (not recommended), a variety of funny shaped cases popped out, and I became very nervous with more powder. Most methods still required yet another firing to have the end result, so I decided to simply fire properly loaded 375 ammo, and out popped perfectly formed 458 Lott cases. Recoil during this process was nill, and accuracy was MOH (Minute Of Hill).
Of course now its a factory cartridge and a few factory rifles around, if they feed perfect, then are an excellent choice for Elephant.

 

[expresshunt]

I always wondered if a 375H&H, or 416RM thrown into a 458 WM or Lott (in a dire emergency, and head spaced on belt) would develop enough velecity to make the bullet penetrate a Buffalo skull in a charge..?? Ive got a feeling almost no velocity, as no pressure build up. But the bang might help..!!

You might think my thoughts a bit harsh, but a few close friends have had skirmishes, multiple broken bones and horn holes in body ... and it gets you thinking, what if this, and what if that..?

 

[CoElkHunter]

I always wondered if a 375H&H, or 416RM thrown into a 458 WM or Lott (in a dire emergency, and head spaced on belt) would develop enough velecity to make the bullet penetrate a Buffalo skull in a charge..?? Ive got a feeling almost no velocity, as no pressure build up. But the bang might help..!!

You might think my thoughts a bit harsh, but a few close friends have had skirmishes, multiple broken bones and horn holes in body ... and it gets you thinking, what if this, and what if that..?

I think the .375 and .416 cases would be too long to fit in a WM chamber, but they’d definitely fit in a Lott! I have mistakenly shot a 9mm pistol round out of my Glock .40 at the range with no issues, but I don’t remember the accuracy of the shot. I would think up close the bullets out of a Lott would still pack some power, but I’m not sure how accurate they would be to hit their target even up close?

 

[PeteG]

I remember a PH's culling belt. It carried both kinds. He didn't care if it was WM or Lott. If the customer left ammo, he would use it.

A good buddy of mine has a 450 ackeley, he uses 458 lott ammo since he cannot source the ackeley ammo.
A client left some 458WM ammo for him and some 300WM ammo behind about 18months ago. He chrono'd the Hornday WM vs some Lott ammo and had faster recorded speed with the WM over the Lott in his ackeley.

Accuracy was more than dependable, it was as good as anything was supposed to be.
Any ideas (or guesses) as to why that would be?

 

[Forrest Halley]

A good buddy of mine has a 450 ackeley, he uses 458 lott ammo since he cannot source the ackeley ammo.
A client left some 458WM ammo for him and some 300WM ammo behind about 18months ago. He chrono'd the Hornday WM vs some Lott ammo and had faster recorded speed with the WM over the Lott in his ackeley.

Accuracy was more than dependable, it was as good as anything was supposed to be.
Any ideas (or guesses) as to why that would be?

I am going to presume the lighter projectile accelerating without any resistance. My main concern would be the gas cutting around the projectile of smaller diameter, but since there's a big underbore it might not be a problem at all.

 

[PeteG]

I am going to presume the lighter projectile accelerating without any resistance. My main concern would be the gas cutting around the projectile of smaller diameter, but since there's a big underbore it might not be a problem at all.

I think you’ve misunderstood me.
he compared the 458 wm to the 458 Lott and found that the WM produced better speed. Both factory loaded 500gr ammo

 

[CoElkHunter]

I am going to presume the lighter projectile accelerating without any resistance. My main concern would be the gas cutting around the projectile of smaller diameter, but since there's a big underbore it might not be a problem at all.

Hey Forrest,
Could you shoot a .375 h and h out of your Lott and let us know if it would be accurate enough to kill a Buffalo at short range?
Thanks!
CEH

 

[PaulT]

When I rechambered a 602 Brno 458WM to 458 Lott 25 years ago, there were no factory Lott rifles, no ammo, cases, or load data around. I read about the cartridge in the South African 'Magnum' magazine and I wrote a letter to writer Gregor Woods for data. There were a number of complicated suggestions given to form brass from 375H&H, eg.. a small scoop of pistol powder and a wad of pumkin didnt work with our Australian pumpkins (not recommended), a variety of funny shaped cases popped out, and I became very nervous with more powder. Most methods still required yet another firing to have the end result, so I decided to simply fire properly loaded 375 ammo, and out popped perfectly formed 458 Lott cases. Recoil during this process was nill, and accuracy was MOH (Minute Of Hill).
Of course now its a factory cartridge and a few factory rifles around, if they feed perfect, then are an excellent choice for Elephant.

Sounds like you got in to the Lott even before i did.

In 1998/9 i had Bob Devries re-chamber my .375 with a reamer i brought in from the U.S.
As you state there was no loading data, cartridges, or cases around at the time, but we got by. I then took my "new" Lott to Zimbabwe in 1999 and took my first Cape buff with it quite satisfactorily but truth be known we really weren't gaining much.
I used that same gun for my first three years guiding on buff and it did a great job.

Having my time again, with the powders and projectiles available to us now-days, if i were a client hunter i would just stick with the standard .458 Win mag and if i were to be guiding clients i would step straight up to one of the big .50's.

Nothing wrong with the Lott, don't get me wrong, i've had three of them in thirty years, big fan.