advice on iron sights

[Pete Council]

Dear all:

this site has given me much good advice so i thought i would seek some on the following problem:
I have recently obtained a new Merkel double rifle in 9.3X74R intended for hogs in Florida and close range elk here in Montana.The rifle comes with a fixed sight mid barrel and a fairly high muzzle ramp sight. I have worked up a load for it that matches i think the load for which the rifle was regulated(if I am reading the german correctly)--this is a 240 grain bullet at 2100 fps --using Hammer all copper bullets and H4350 powder---the trouble is the gun shoots about 6-8 inches low in my hands at 50 yards so i need a higher rear sight. What I would really like would be a two leaf folding sight mounted just over the breech end of the barrel---the barrels have a nice platform already drilled and tapped to mount something in that location.

my question is can anyone give me reference to a gun smith here in the US that could obtain and install such a sight? preferably some one who knows double rifles. New England Sights makes nice folding leaf sights like this but there is no way I am going to try to do this myself.

-pete council
Montana

 

[steve white]

The only trouble with breech located sights manifests itself as your eyes get older--then you cannot focus unless the sight is moved further down the rib--maybe not quite as much as your mid barrel sight, but...

 

[Mountaineer]

New England Custom Guns

 

[robtattoo]

Could you not file the front sight, or possibly mount a lower blade?

 

[Jeff505]

As my eyes have gotten older (along w the rest of me) I have a hard time with iron sites. Buck horn sites are blurred. I changed my 444 marlin to a Skinner peep and now it is once again shootable. I have seen this set up on double rifles. There are some made that have elevation as well as windage adjustments.

 

[Longwalker]

It would be a mistake to mount a folding leaf sight over the breech. It would be almost impossible to shoot well with such an arrangement. However, an aperture sight may work well for your purposes. Another alternative is a new front sight that is lower in height. I had a similar situation with my Merkel double and purchased a new front sight from NECG as Mountaineer suggested. Simple, effective solution.

 

[DWB]

I have an idea that your speed is too low, should most likely regulate again at a higher speed.

Maybe just see what happens to the POI at a higher speed.

 

[Woodcarver]

Dear all:

this site has given me much good advice so i thought i would seek some on the following problem:
I have recently obtained a new Merkel double rifle in 9.3X74R intended for hogs in Florida and close range elk here in Montana.The rifle comes with a fixed sight mid barrel and a fairly high muzzle ramp sight. I have worked up a load for it that matches i think the load for which the rifle was regulated(if I am reading the german correctly)--this is a 240 grain bullet at 2100 fps --using Hammer all copper bullets and H4350 powder---the trouble is the gun shoots about 6-8 inches low in my hands at 50 yards so i need a higher rear sight. What I would really like would be a two leaf folding sight mounted just over the breech end of the barrel---the barrels have a nice platform already drilled and tapped to mount something in that location.

my question is can anyone give me reference to a gun smith here in the US that could obtain and install such a sight? preferably some one who knows double rifles. New England Sights makes nice folding leaf sights like this but there is no way I am going to try to do this myself.

-pete council
Montana

That would be an odd load for the 9.3x74R to be regulated with. The common, perhaps standard, load would be a 286gr bullet between 2300-2400fps. How does the light load you worked up regulate?
If you're low at 50yds, you would need to shorten the front sight. Merkel's have an easily replaced front site iirc. As others have mentioned, NECG would be the 1st place to talk to.
Have fun with the DR! Hopefully mine will be used on a cow moose in about a month!

 

[robtattoo]

That would be an odd load for the 9.3x74R to be regulated with. The common, perhaps standard, load would be a 286gr bullet between 2300-2400fps. How does the light load you worked up regulate?
If you're low at 50yds, you would need to shorten the front sight. Merkel's have an easily replaced front site iirc. As others have mentioned, NECG would be the 1st place to talk to.
Have fun with the DR! Hopefully mine will be used on a cow moose in about a month!

That makes a lot of sense.
286gr is the 'common' bullet weight for 9.3 & 23-2500 seems to be the average working parameters for it.
I think @Woodcarver is right & you probably need to re-look at your load data.
Natchez have the Hornady 286s in stock right now.

 

[robtattoo]

Dear all:

this site has given me much good advice so i thought i would seek some on the following problem:
I have recently obtained a new Merkel double rifle in 9.3X74R intended for hogs in Florida and close range elk here in Montana.The rifle comes with a fixed sight mid barrel and a fairly high muzzle ramp sight. I have worked up a load for it that matches i think the load for which the rifle was regulated(if I am reading the german correctly)--this is a 240 grain bullet at 2100 fps --using Hammer all copper bullets and H4350 powder---the trouble is the gun shoots about 6-8 inches low in my hands at 50 yards so i need a higher rear sight. What I would really like would be a two leaf folding sight mounted just over the breech end of the barrel---the barrels have a nice platform already drilled and tapped to mount something in that location.

my question is can anyone give me reference to a gun smith here in the US that could obtain and install such a sight? preferably some one who knows double rifles. New England Sights makes nice folding leaf sights like this but there is no way I am going to try to do this myself.

-pete council
Montana

Could you possibly post the original German load data please?

 

[Pete Council]

OK---so not bad thoughts....I can look at a heavier bullet sent slightly faster, I have a skinner peep on a lever action 45-70 so that would work well here...I will contact New England about installing a skinner sight---I agree that abreech mounted folding leaf is probably not ideal

 

[Pete Council]

so i reviewed the documentation that came with the rifle and indeed the regulating load is a Norma load called the Vulkan using a 15 gram or 232 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2559 fps. There is a included target of showing a 1 cm separation between the two barrels impact points at 50 meters

I cannot get Norma components so that is why I went with the Hammer 240grain---I can advance the powder charge gradually up and likely get close to 2500 fps

Still, I should have a better rear sight on the gun---sending it off to NECG is one option and talking to Andy at Skinner about getting one of his sights fitted is another

I do note the comment about the 286 grain being a more common load for the 9.3x74R but they regulated this gun for a 232 grain bullet so not sure how that would work but i can experiment

 

[Woodcarver]

Experimenting is fun!
Took a while to find the formula for my 9.3x74R with 285-286gr pills, but a change in powder to W760 solved the problem. At 2316fps, they regulate at 100yds. So far I've only used the Oryx and Partitions, but they both hit same POI. Put 6 rounds into about 6" at 224yds off the quad sticks with both. But factory Hornady DGS rounds at 2404fps will cross and be 4" on the opposite side at 100yds (work fine for <75yds).
Finally found the load my Pedersoli MkIV 45-70 likes after a few hundred rounds. almost anything worked ok from 50-75yds, but to extend to 100yds I had to lighten the bullet and speed it up. Good thing is, it really likes the Acme coated cast 350grRNFP. Lots of inexpensive shooting ahead.
Have fun with the search for the right load!

 

[SFRanger7GP]

so i reviewed the documentation that came with the rifle and indeed the regulating load is a Norma load called the Vulkan using a 15 gram or 232 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2559 fps. There is a included target of showing a 1 cm separation between the two barrels impact points at 50 meters

I cannot get Norma components so that is why I went with the Hammer 240grain---I can advance the powder charge gradually up and likely get close to 2500 fps

Still, I should have a better rear sight on the gun---sending it off to NECG is one option and talking to Andy at Skinner about getting one of his sights fitted is another

I do note the comment about the 286 grain being a more common load for the 9.3x74R but they regulated this gun for a 232 grain bullet so not sure how that would work but i can experiment

Is your Merkel a 141? If so, it should have 2 screws on the barrel wedge that allows you to regulate the rifle. Don’t bother to ask Merkel for info on how to do it; they won’t help you and will discourage you to adjust it. It is a very simple process. I regulated mine for Norma 286gr factory ammo

Safe shooting

 

[rookhawk]

Dear all:

this site has given me much good advice so i thought i would seek some on the following problem:
I have recently obtained a new Merkel double rifle in 9.3X74R intended for hogs in Florida and close range elk here in Montana.The rifle comes with a fixed sight mid barrel and a fairly high muzzle ramp sight. I have worked up a load for it that matches i think the load for which the rifle was regulated(if I am reading the german correctly)--this is a 240 grain bullet at 2100 fps --using Hammer all copper bullets and H4350 powder---the trouble is the gun shoots about 6-8 inches low in my hands at 50 yards so i need a higher rear sight. What I would really like would be a two leaf folding sight mounted just over the breech end of the barrel---the barrels have a nice platform already drilled and tapped to mount something in that location.

my question is can anyone give me reference to a gun smith here in the US that could obtain and install such a sight? preferably some one who knows double rifles. New England Sights makes nice folding leaf sights like this but there is no way I am going to try to do this myself.

-pete council
Montana

@Pete Council You defined your problem correctly but you assumed a more complicated solution.

You don't necessarily need a changed rear sight, you could also change the front sight. Or you could potentially file down the rear sight until you get perfect regulation. (You may need a blank rear sight if you're too low on that plane already)

NECG does the services you require and their advantage is they have 500 kinds of sights on hand so they have the right parts. Ken Owen could also do this work.

Cheapest approach would be to do the math and figure out what front sight would alter the point of impact by 6-7" at 50-60 paces and call it a day. Your price goes up by $300-$500 if someone needs to "regulate the gun" by shooting it with your ammo at a range and getting out the rasp to alter point of impact of a sight as they go. And that $300-$500 is the range day fee, not the parts for the sight.

 

[Woodcarver]

Here's a pic of yesterday's practice with the Chapuis 9.3x74R, off Gunstix at 100yds. (the flyer from the left barrel was taking the 2nd shot as quickly as I get back on target). Once you figure out what your rifle likes, doubles can be more accurate than some folks give them credit for. This was shot with Nosler 286gr Partitions. If you want the load data, shoot me a pm. This load is averaging 2336fps and recoil is about like my 300WM. (bull is 5") The 9.3 is rapidly becoming one of my favorite calibers.

 

[igotit]

I put Kriss BUIS on my latest AR. Both sights can be adjusted w/o tools.