Any programs out there for designing cartridges?

[matt85]

There are a couple cartridges I would like but as far as I know, they don't exist. So I was wondering if there was a program that I could use to design cartridges.

Any one know?

In the off chance they do exist and I've just never seen them. I'm looking for a cartridge that will push a .510" 570gr bullet at just over 2000fps from a standard length action, basically a 458 WM but in .510"

I would also like a cartridge that uses a .585" 750gr bullet that will work in a standard magnum action. I have a 585 HE but this cartridge is far longer than it needs to be to achieve the 2050fps that I want and requires heavily modified actions.

Thanks!
-Matt

 

[JD Noblin]

Your cartridge descriptions sound fascinating....I would like to hear more about them. What is going to be the parent brass you will be using for each one?

I hope your designs come out better than mine....I've "designed" three cartridges and was quite proud of myself....only to shortly realize that someone else way smarter than me had already designed those cartridges!! The names of the cartridges that someone beat me to are (1) 300 RUM, (2) 458 No. 2 (also called the 458x2-Inch American), and (3) the 35/376 Steyr.

 

[BourbonTrail]

Matt, that kinda sounds like a 500 B&M. Might ask @michael458 if he knows of any cartridge design software.

For the 585, what about making one off of a 505 Gibbs? Probably be a shadow shoulder and it requires a full magnum action

 

[JD Noblin]

Matt....A-Square designed a .510 bullet out of a standard action (like the 458 WM)...it's called the 495 A-Square. http://www.broadswordgroup.com/495_a_square.html

 

[matt85]

Matt, that kinda sounds like a 500 B&M. Might ask @michael458 if he knows of any cartridge design software.

For the 585, what about making one off of a 505 Gibbs? Probably be a shadow shoulder and it requires a full magnum action

I just looked up the 500 B&M, will have to ask him more about that cartridge. Might work for what I'm looking for. It would save me a lot of trouble if someone already designed the cartridge!

Not sure on the 585 cartridge, I might actually use the 585 HE as a parent and just cut it shorter.

Matt....A-Square designed a .510 bullet out of a standard action (like the 458 WM)...it's called the 495 A-Square. http://www.broadswordgroup.com/495_a_square.html

You might be thinking of a different cartridge? It says in that link that it requires a magnum action.

-Matt

 

[michael458]

In the off chance they do exist and I've just never seen them. I'm looking for a cartridge that will push a .510" 570gr bullet at just over 2000fps from a standard length action, basically a 458 WM but in .510"

Matt, that kinda sounds like a 500 B&M. Might ask @michael458 if he knows of any cartridge design software.

I just looked up the 500 B&M, will have to ask him more about that cartridge. Might work for what I'm looking for. It would save me a lot of trouble if someone already designed the cartridge!

I will try and help address these three subjects first.... and, let me be clear, I am not a gunsmith and the last thing you want is me working on something as I tend to destroy more than I can possibly fix. In addition to this, I know very little about anything once you leave a Winchester M70 action. If it is not a Winchester M70, I know little or nothing. Keep this in mind as we discuss these things..........

I see standard length action mentioned quite a bit here....... In many cases, it is not the actual length, but the width of the magazine box and other associated designs that go with it..... For example lets look first at the WSM Winchester M70 action, designed for the WSM cartridges, which are a good bit wider than standard H&H Based cases, or standard cases for that length in 308 Winchester. One cannot take a 308 based Winchester and turn it into a and use a WSM width case, it just will not function or retain properly. There are a hell of a lot of modifications to the action to get it to work with the WSM cases........ I based my standard RUM based cartridges off of using the WSM action. These are all 2.240 inch RUM cases in 9.3, 416, 458, and 50 B&M (.500 caliber)

So if @matt85 wants a .510 in a standard length it is going to have to be a larger, fatter cartridge to handle the .510 caliber taper and still function, and therefore have to be a wider as well action.

All of my 500s are actual true .500 caliber........ They are not .510. This worked out better for the rifle I wanted to use, Winchester M70 actions. As stated for all the standard B&Ms this was the WSM action, already designed for the various small caliber WSMs, they were relatively easy to work with the larger calibers in RUM, and in addition no bolt face work or redesign was required. I basically started with the Rifle I wanted, and then proceeded to design the cartridge and what would work the easiest in .500 caliber, all the other calibers came after.

Later working with the 500 MDM, a full 2.8 inch RUM case, I used the RUM Based Winchester in 300 RUM....... once again, a very modified Winchester action designed for the larger diameter case in RUM as opposed to the H&H Based actions. Big differences I am told, so much so that it is not reasonable and in some cases just not possible to get around. We looked at converting a H&H based Win M70 to the 500 MDM and it was deemed not reasonable by more than one real gunsmith... So, we were stuck with using the very modified M70 for the RUM cartridge, and has worked fine, although these are getting harder to come by these days. I am not sure if Montana is still around or not, but I had them build two RUM actions and they worked great as well, but they were designed for the RUM case....... The 500 MDM is true .500 caliber, and can run 500 gr bullets to over 2400 fps in 20 inch barrels...... With todays Bullet Tech, there is no need for heavier bullets to get more than enough penetration for any mission required. However, there are some 550 gr designs and the 500 MDM can run those to 2250 fps and remain at 61000 PSI.

I see 500 B&M mentioned, this is a 2.5 inch RUM case, still on the longer Winchester RUM action. This was an experiment I was conducting with Talon Tipped Safari Raptors. A Talon Tipped Raptor will hold about a 125-150 fps advantage in velocity at 50 yards over a Raptor that is not tipped. This means that while it might start a little slower than a 500 MDM can run a non tipped Raptor, it would gain advantage at 50 yard impact velocity. This turned out to be more or less true.

Now, truth is, I wanted a little lighter barrel contour for the 500 B&M and in addition shorter barrel, at 18 inches, this made the Rifle a long action RUM based, very near the same weight and length as the standard 50 B&M with its WSM action. Using the same smaller diameter barrel contour and same 18 inch length, the 2.5 inch RUM case really performed above its pay grade, while still maintaining its quick handling and easy to carry all day....... The 500 B&M is capable of 500 gr Bullets at 2250 fps at or less than 60000 PSI. But, I used Bullet Tech and 450 gr bullets to enhance its capabilities at 2400 fps and using a 410 Talon Tipped Raptor at just over 2500 fps for buffalo busting. This proved to be a very potent package...... In addition I had CEB make a 525 gr #13 Solid, and this is an extreme deep diving solid in .500 caliber, in 500 B&M and its 18 inch barrel we can run this at 2150 fps or so at 54000-58000 PSI depending on powder, this would be an extreme for knocking elephant flat from all angles... and in a very compact package.......

The 500 B&M was never a listed cartridge on the Website, and to date there are only two of them, and I have both on hand. Honestly, it may be my favorite of all the .500 calibers I have developed.

This is my Mrytle Stock 500 B&M.......

I can talk Winchester, and it would be somewhat of a chore to find a cartridge that has enough taper to use .510 caliber. And really just not needed, as there are now far far more bullets available in .500 caliber than ever in .510...........from 300 gr to 550 gr.........

Stated earlier, I can't speak with any sort of knowledge concerning other actions that might be used for a project......... most .510 caliber cartridges would have to be larger and require a larger action I think.................

 

[Flewis]

There was a short version of the 585 nyati that would fit a standard action, but it’s still the 577 case.

 

[michael458]

I would also like a cartridge that uses a .585" 750gr bullet that will work in a standard magnum action. I have a 585 HE but this cartridge is far longer than it needs to be to achieve the 2050fps that I want and requires heavily modified actions.

One thing I would like to start out with, for questions like this, and many many others related to various cartridges and loads, a tremendous resource is available with AmmoGuide.........

AmmoGuide is now... "Interactive"!

The first SERIOUS reloading manual on the web.

ammoguide.com

Just about everything you can think of just might be listed at AmmGuide for you to take a look at.....

Through AmmoGuide I looked at @matt85 question above, and it was relatively easy to find. What I found was the 585 Short Hubel Express. Below is what Ed described;

In developing my long 585HE, I received queries about a short version for smaller, shorter, bolt actions, with just the equivalent power of 577NE. So I borrowed the idea behind the B&M and RAM cases that went up to .50 cal. and made a shorter .585 case, 2.700" long. Like the above=mentioned rounds, this cases headspaces in bolt actions on the extractor and the case mouth - dependable with cases that are short relative to diameter.

Cases are made from Gibbs brass. The reamer I set up makes a tight chamber exactly 2.700" long resulting in perfect headspace, cartridge supported. Casehead is still like the Gibbs. Case volume total is 167 gr of dense ball powder. Regular loads push 650gr bullets at 2200 and 750gr at 2050, just like .577NE. The first gun chambered was a Ruger 77, and soon going into a Savage, REM, and some Mausers.

Ed Hubel



Now how Ed put this cartridge on actions he is talking about is totally unknown to me and way out of my area of expertise. Being one to question some things, I would have concerns if this could be a viable DGR? Some things come to mind quickly, how in the world can you fit this big cartridge in that action? Single Shot? Maybe, I just don't know. One would need to look into this, and with Ed no longer available as a resource it might get sketchy. Ed was a pioneer in this area. I am sure with a little research these questions can be answered.


Designing a cartridge is one thing, but one must sort out what their objectives were. For me personally it was a combination, Rifle, Cartridge and then most important the bullet..... mine was a quest for a serious DGRifle, cartridge and bullet combination, and everything had to work, feed/function and be reliable........ For many, it may just be the thrill of developing a cartridge, which is of course rewarding in and of itself, and lots of fun to boot...... I love doing test work, load data and pressure work, I love going into the unknown and seeing what works and what does not. It is quite an adventure.

In the early days there was some sort of little program I had, rather elementary at best, but one was able to draw the cartridge and get basic ideas..... I would send these to Brian at SSK and he would sort them out for Dave Manson, and then on to either Hornady or RCBS for dies....... at the end of my developments, I just basically told Brian what I wanted and he sorted it out from there, I had a pretty good idea and no longer needed to see a diagram...... I forget what that little program was, I will see if I can find it over the next few days.......... I would do a search, there is probably something out there just as good and most likely free.......

 

[geoff rath]

I will try and help address these three subjects first.... and, let me be clear, I am not a gunsmith and the last thing you want is me working on something as I tend to destroy more than I can possibly fix. In addition to this, I know very little about anything once you leave a Winchester M70 action. If it is not a Winchester M70, I know little or nothing. Keep this in mind as we discuss these things..........

I see standard length action mentioned quite a bit here....... In many cases, it is not the actual length, but the width of the magazine box and other associated designs that go with it..... For example lets look first at the WSM Winchester M70 action, designed for the WSM cartridges, which are a good bit wider than standard H&H Based cases, or standard cases for that length in 308 Winchester. One cannot take a 308 based Winchester and turn it into a and use a WSM width case, it just will not function or retain properly. There are a hell of a lot of modifications to the action to get it to work with the WSM cases........ I based my standard RUM based cartridges off of using the WSM action. These are all 2.240 inch RUM cases in 9.3, 416, 458, and 50 B&M (.500 caliber)

So if @matt85 wants a .510 in a standard length it is going to have to be a larger, fatter cartridge to handle the .510 caliber taper and still function, and therefore have to be a wider as well action.

All of my 500s are actual true .500 caliber........ They are not .510. This worked out better for the rifle I wanted to use, Winchester M70 actions. As stated for all the standard B&Ms this was the WSM action, already designed for the various small caliber WSMs, they were relatively easy to work with the larger calibers in RUM, and in addition no bolt face work or redesign was required. I basically started with the Rifle I wanted, and then proceeded to design the cartridge and what would work the easiest in .500 caliber, all the other calibers came after.

Later working with the 500 MDM, a full 2.8 inch RUM case, I used the RUM Based Winchester in 300 RUM....... once again, a very modified Winchester action designed for the larger diameter case in RUM as opposed to the H&H Based actions. Big differences I am told, so much so that it is not reasonable and in some cases just not possible to get around. We looked at converting a H&H based Win M70 to the 500 MDM and it was deemed not reasonable by more than one real gunsmith... So, we were stuck with using the very modified M70 for the RUM cartridge, and has worked fine, although these are getting harder to come by these days. I am not sure if Montana is still around or not, but I had them build two RUM actions and they worked great as well, but they were designed for the RUM case....... The 500 MDM is true .500 caliber, and can run 500 gr bullets to over 2400 fps in 20 inch barrels...... With todays Bullet Tech, there is no need for heavier bullets to get more than enough penetration for any mission required. However, there are some 550 gr designs and the 500 MDM can run those to 2250 fps and remain at 61000 PSI.

I see 500 B&M mentioned, this is a 2.5 inch RUM case, still on the longer Winchester RUM action. This was an experiment I was conducting with Talon Tipped Safari Raptors. A Talon Tipped Raptor will hold about a 125-150 fps advantage in velocity at 50 yards over a Raptor that is not tipped. This means that while it might start a little slower than a 500 MDM can run a non tipped Raptor, it would gain advantage at 50 yard impact velocity. This turned out to be more or less true.

View attachment 552724

Now, truth is, I wanted a little lighter barrel contour for the 500 B&M and in addition shorter barrel, at 18 inches, this made the Rifle a long action RUM based, very near the same weight and length as the standard 50 B&M with its WSM action. Using the same smaller diameter barrel contour and same 18 inch length, the 2.5 inch RUM case really performed above its pay grade, while still maintaining its quick handling and easy to carry all day....... The 500 B&M is capable of 500 gr Bullets at 2250 fps at or less than 60000 PSI. But, I used Bullet Tech and 450 gr bullets to enhance its capabilities at 2400 fps and using a 410 Talon Tipped Raptor at just over 2500 fps for buffalo busting. This proved to be a very potent package...... In addition I had CEB make a 525 gr #13 Solid, and this is an extreme deep diving solid in .500 caliber, in 500 B&M and its 18 inch barrel we can run this at 2150 fps or so at 54000-58000 PSI depending on powder, this would be an extreme for knocking elephant flat from all angles... and in a very compact package.......

The 500 B&M was never a listed cartridge on the Website, and to date there are only two of them, and I have both on hand. Honestly, it may be my favorite of all the .500 calibers I have developed.

This is my Mrytle Stock 500 B&M.......

View attachment 552725


I can talk Winchester, and it would be somewhat of a chore to find a cartridge that has enough taper to use .510 caliber. And really just not needed, as there are now far far more bullets available in .500 caliber than ever in .510...........from 300 gr to 550 gr.........

Stated earlier, I can't speak with any sort of knowledge concerning other actions that might be used for a project......... most .510 caliber cartridges would have to be larger and require a larger action I think.................

 

[geoff rath]

I suspect that if Michael was to ever "let one of his 500 B&Ms go" there'd be fighting in the streets to get it; I'd join in ...

 

[JD Noblin]

You might be thinking of a different cartridge? It says in that link that it requires a magnum action.

-Matt

I could very well be wrong....from what I can determine, the 495 A-Square designed by Art Alphin is the big brother to the 458 Lott. Both cartridges have a case length of 2.800" and an COAL of 3.600" but the 495 is a bullet diameter of .510". The parent cartridges for each one are obviously not the same.

According to one website, "[a] short version of the 500 A-Square called the .495 A-Square is available that is short enough to be build on Winchester model 70 and Mauser model 98 actions, with extensive reworking of the magazine box, rails and ramp." (https://470mbogo.wordpress.com/big-bore-compendium/500-a-square/)

From personal experience, I know that you can ream a M70 458 Win Mag to handle 458 Lott.....since the COALs are the same you can fit the 495 into the M70 action. According to an entry on the Accurate Reloader forum entitled ".495 A-Square chamber reamer" dated 21 February 2014, 07:21 from user name "RIP", "Art Alphin's first 495 A-Square was done on a Winchester M70...." (NOTE: For some reason, AH won't let me cite to the **NOT**PERMITTED** link...my paste shows up as "not permitted")

Please keep us updated on your quest for a new 510 cartridge...I would love to see how it goes. I am currently building a 500 A-Square as well as a 550 Magnum on GMA African actions....the 550 should be completed within the next year.

 

[dchamp]

Quick Load has a program called Quick Design. You might check that out.

Quick Design – Computer Aided Cartridge Design | Neconos.com

www.neconos.com

 

[Hunter-Habib]

.500 Jeffery rifles have been built on standard length actions (such as Zastava M70). And they can be loaded with 570Gr bullets.

 

[IvW]

I would lime to convert a 450 no.2 case to 500, firing a 600gr .510 bullet at about 2200-2250fps.....

 

[IvW]

.500 Jeffery rifles have been built on standard length actions (such as Zastava M70). And they can be loaded with 570Gr bullets.

I would not build a 500 Jeff on a standard action and also not on a Zastava action.....use a ZKK602 action and avoid any issues....

 

[Flewis]

You guys maybe thinking the 460a2, it is a 2.5 inch case but 45 not 50cal.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I would not build a 500 Jeff on a standard action and also not on a Zastava action.....use a ZKK602 action and avoid any issues....

Nor would I. But were the original German .500 Jeffery rifles not built on a standard length Mauser action ?

 

[IvW]

Nor would I. But were the original German .500 Jeffery rifles not built on a standard length Mauser action ?

Maybe but certainly not on a Zastava action.....
Originally designed for std length but you just limit yourself.
Mauser and Zadtava should not be seen in the same light....
ZKK602 is the best way to go

 

[IvW]

Jeffery and other makers quickly turned to mag length actions..

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Jeffery and other makers quickly turned to mag length actions..

Thank you, IvW. For clearing this up.